THE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES
OFFICIAL REPORT
IN THE THIRD SESSION OF THE FIFTY–THIRD PARLIAMENT OF THE
UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND
[WHICH OPENED 13 JUNE 2001]
FIFTY–SECOND YEAR OF THE REIGN OF
HER MAJESTY QUEEN ELIZABETH II
SIXTH SERIES
VOLUME 417
THIRD VOLUME OF SESSION 2003–2004House of Commons
Monday 26 January 2004
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. Speaker in the Chair]
Oral Answers to Questions
DEFENCE
The Secretary of State was asked—
Army Training
1. Jim Knight (South Dorset) (Lab): If he will make a statement on the implications of the defence White Paper for Army training requirements. [150153]
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr. Ivor Caplin): Following the publication of the White Paper in December, detailed work is now under way to redesign the Army's training requirements. That will underpin the changes that will be needed in the future. Our current assumptions are that the Army will continue to train for war in all potential environments, and that training will be based on the existing facilities in the UK and overseas.
Jim Knight : I congratulate the Minister and his colleagues on the White Paper, which I broadly welcome. Some of my constituents, however—
particularly those at the Bovington armour centre and the gunnery ranges in Lulworth—are concerned about it, given the conversion of one of the heavy armoured regiments to a light armoured regiment. Can the Minister give them any reassurance about Bovington's future?
Mr. Caplin: My hon. Friend is right—the White Paper does mention the conversion of two brigades to medium and light structures. Such changes, however, would not affect the total throughput of training in the armour centre in his constituency. Indeed, because of the unique range of facilities offered by the Bovington garrison, it will remain a centre of excellence for the delivery of training to our armed forces.
Dr. Julian Lewis (New Forest, East) (Con): The White Paper rightly emphasises the revolution in military affairs and the importance of technological advance rather than numbers, but does the Minister accept that when it comes to peacekeeping duties in particular, Army training must reflect the fact that large numbers of people need to be on the ground for such operations?
May I also take this opportunity to tell the Secretary of State—at the beginning of what may prove to be a deeply unpleasant and stressful week for him—that many Conservative Members, especially on the shadow Defence team, well remember the many kindnesses, courtesies and levels of consideration that he has shown us on a personal basis? We would like to put that on record.
Mr. Caplin: I assure the hon. Gentleman that the facilities for training in the United Kingdom are there, and that we will continue to use them for the purposes of the main training environment that I have described.
Mr. James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): Am I not right to be concerned—and is my hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury (Mr. Key) not right to be concerned—about the availability of infantry training
facilities, particularly on and around Salisbury plain? If the infantry is to be downgraded, surely there will be much less of a requirement for infantry training in such areas as Warminster. Can the Minister give us an absolute assurance that infantry training in and around Wiltshire will not be downgraded?
Mr. Caplin: I want to put the record straight—there is no downgrading of the infantry. Over the past five or six years we have invested heavily in our training facilities, some of which I have seen recently at Catterick, and we will continue to do so.
Hawk Advanced Jet Trainer
2. Shona McIsaac (Cleethorpes) (Lab): What efforts the Government are making to promote the Hawk 128 advanced jet trainer for the international export market. [150154]
The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr. Geoffrey Hoon): The Government are committed, through the Defence Export Services Organisation, to supporting the legitimate efforts of British industry to export defence equipment overseas. The Hawk advanced jet trainer is no exception, and we are pleased to be supporting industry with the sale of the Hawk to the Government of India.
Shona McIsaac : The announcement in July that the Government were to choose the Hawk trainer was excellent news for my constituents who work at BAE Systems in Brough. Does not the long-awaited decision by the Indian Government vindicate my right hon. Friend's decision, and does it not also demonstrate that this is still the trainer aircraft of choice throughout the world?
Mr. Hoon: I thank my hon. Friend for her comments and for her consistent support for what was undoubtedly a difficult decision. I know that her constituents who work at Brough will have reason to be grateful to her for all those efforts. She is right that the Hawk trainer is the aircraft of choice for a number of countries around the world. I hope that the Indian Government's expressed wish to purchase the aircraft will set a precedent for a number of other countries that have already shown an interest.
Dr. Vincent Cable (Twickenham) (LD): After the permanent secretary to the Ministry of Defence made known his objections to the UK Hawk jet contract on the ground that it represented poor value for money, did he say whether exports would change the balance of advantage? If so, how many Hawks will have to be exported to turn the contract into good value for money?
Mr. Hoon: It was an excellent decision for UK manufacturing. I seem to recall the hon. Gentleman saying that it should not be for the United Kingdom Government to promote export sales of defence equipment throughout the world. I look forward to his saying that around the country on behalf of the Liberal
Democrats, when he will see the tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people who risk losing their jobs because of his policies.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North) (Lab): Will the Secretary of State assure us that there is no danger of any Hawk aircraft that are sold anywhere in the world being converted into combat aircraft and used to mount campaigns against insurgents, which happened in East Timor and is reported to be happening in Indonesia? Is he confident that the end-user certificate system actually works and is properly monitored by British officials?
Mr. Hoon: The aircraft are of course training aircraft, and the United Kingdom operates the most rigorous and transparent export licensing arrangements of any country in the world.
Miss Anne McIntosh (Vale of York) (Con): From the right hon. Gentleman's time in the European Parliament, has he formed a view on the potential benefits—especially for collaborative international projects in which British Aerospace is involved—of using the European budget line of joint Export Credits Guarantee Department cover?
Mr. Hoon: The hon. Lady left the European Parliament more recently than I, so no doubt she has greater familiarity with the precise details of its budgetary arrangements. I assure her that we look for collaboration and partners in all such projects, not least because the investment required today to bring forward a hi-tech piece of equipment such as an advanced jet trainer means that there is a clear benefit to having more than one partner.
Armed Forces Education and Training
3. Mr. Michael Foster (Worcester) (Lab): What measures he is taking to improve education and training for the armed forces. [150155]
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr. Ivor Caplin): Training and education make a vital contribution to our armed forces' operational capability. The 2001 defence training review identified more than 200 recommendations for improvement, which are now being taken forward. This includes the rationalisation of certain specialist training and the exploitation of new technology to enable the widespread introduction of e-learning throughout our armed forces. In support of the wider Government learning agenda, we have also developed programmes to improve the basic skills of our people in literacy, numeracy and communications technology. As far as possible, we also seek to ensure that our training and education is accredited to nationally recognised qualifications.
Mr. Foster : I am grateful for that reply, but will the Minister explain to the House what progress is being made to make training, skills and qualifications earned in the armed forces match more closely those that would be earned in civilian life, so that when the time comes people have a smooth and easy transfer back to civilian life?
Mr. Caplin: My hon. Friend makes an interesting observation. The Ministry of Defence is one of the
largest training organisations in the United Kingdom and it is important to maximise the return on the investment that we make in our people. One of the ways in which we have been able to do that is through Skillforce, which uses those who leave our armed forces to educate and train youngsters in 23 pilot areas throughout the United Kingdom who would otherwise not get such support for their education.
Patrick Mercer (Newark) (Con): The Minister will be aware that last year more than 90 per cent. of field training exercises had to be cancelled and that many career development courses were not taken up because of overstretch. Will he tell the House how he intends to ensure that battle-winning skills are not blunted any further?
Mr. Caplin: Of course we are learning the lessons of what went on last year, in terms of not only Operation Telic but Operation Fresco, with which the hon. Gentleman will be familiar. All those issues are important so that we can ensure that our armed forces are in the right frame of mind with the right training and development for the future.
Mr. Brian Jenkins (Tamworth) (Lab): My hon. Friend is right to praise the armed forces and their education. There has been a tremendous improvement in the way in which they have linked up and made that compatible with the civilian force outside our industry. What is he doing to ensure that we get real value for money for the training that we put into the forces by securing retention, which is a vital element?
Mr. Caplin: One of the important aspects of retention is ensuring that we have the right accreditation for members of our armed forces after they have completed their training and skills. That is why it is important to have transferable skills that increase the confidence of individuals in our armed forces and make them the credit that they are to our nation.
Mr. Edward Garnier (Harborough) (Con): Can the Minister assure me that the training facilities at Suffield in Alberta will be adequately financed so that our troops can go to operations of war with proper large-scale unit training under their belts before they arrive?
Mr. Caplin: The hon. and learned Gentleman may have heard my answer on the heavy investment that we have made in our training facilities. That applies equally to the camp he mentions, which I understand was part of the Saif Sareea operation in 2002.
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