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Richard Younger-Ross (Teignbridge) (LD): On collaboration with other bodies, that between the fire authority and the police in Devon in forming an arson taskforce has been extremely successful, and has seen arson reduced by 15 per cent. The fear is that because it is funded by competitive bid, that good work might not continue. What assurances can the Minister give to Devon and other authorities that have seen a reduction in arson because of such joint working?
Mr. Raynsford: One of the purposes of competitive bids is to encourage all authorities to look to improve their performance and to be more ambitious. We have
an expanding budget for support for initiatives, however, and I assure the hon. Gentleman that good, well constructed and worthwhile projects are likely to be supported. At present, I cannot say more on the specific example that he gives.Ultimately, these are matters for fire and rescue authorities, but the Bill will allow flexibility in terms of service delivery where it is appropriate. Firefighting, however, requires particular specialist training and expertise, and the Bill restricts delegation for extinguishing fires to those who are properly qualified such as other fire and rescue authorities and airport fire services.
Part 2 also provides the power to charge for services. Fire and rescue authorities already have the right to charge for discretionary services under the Fire Services Act 1947. There is some debate about how such powers might best be used in the future, partly prompted by the Bain report. In developing the new legislative structure, therefore, we decided to make clear what a fire and rescue authority can and cannot charge for. We will do that by order, which in the first instance will confirm our White Paper commitment to maintain the status quo. Any proposals to extend charging will be subject to further consultation. Hon. Members will, I hope, note that the Bill prevents a fire and rescue authority from charging for fighting fires.
Part 3 of the Bill covers the administration, supervision and infrastructure of the fire and rescue service. On 11 December, we published for consultation a draft fire and rescue national framework. That responds to the criticism by Bain about the lack of strategic direction for the fire and rescue service from successive Governments. It sets out the objectives that we expect the service to achieve, what actions we expect fire and rescue authorities to take to meet those objectives, and the support that we in Government will provide to help meet those shared objectives. The Bill will give statutory force to the national framework. It will require the Secretary of State to keep the national framework up to date and to consult on any significant changes. Fire and rescue authorities must have regard to the requirements of the national framework and the Secretary of State will, from time to time, report on the extent to which authorities are acting in accordance with it.
In most instances, it will be for fire and rescue authorities to determine how best to deliver the requirements of the national framework. We need reserve powers to intervene, however, if a fire and rescue authority is failing to act in accordance with the national framework, as that may impact on national strategies to deliver essential emergency response services. The Bill provides a power to intervene in such circumstances where existing powers within the best value regime would not apply.
Mr. Edward Davey: The Minister says that these are reserve powers, but hon. Members who have read clause 22 will know that the Secretary of State will be able to
order an authority "to do something", "to stop doing something" and "not to do something". Is that not effectively the nationalisation of the fire service?
Mr. Raynsford: No, it is not, but I put it to the hon. Gentleman that he must be aware that, given the kind of circumstances that we have to deal with and make provision for, it would be grossly irresponsible if the Government were not to have the power to intervene in extreme circumstances if an authority was failing to meet responsibilities that are fundamental to the safety of that area's population or, indeed, to wider resilience across the country. It is the action of a responsible Government to have these reserve powers. We hope that they will not need to be used, but they will be there just in case.
Mr. Hammond: Does the Minister not already effectively have the power to intervene in a failing authority under the provisions of the Local Government Acts?
Mr. Raynsford: The Secretary of State has powers under the best value regime, but I was pointing out in response to the hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey) that the powers that we are considering could be used in extreme circumstances of national emergency, where the justification for intervention would be a failure to deliver not best value, but something that was, in fact, fundamental to national resilience. So it is necessary to have these additional powers, although we could still use the best value powers in other circumstances.
Equally, we need to ensure that crucial public assets and facilities can be used, for example, during a period of industrial action where official fire and rescue cover is insufficient to meet local risks and ensure public safety. Therefore the Bill will replicate the powers under section 1(1)(b) of the Fire Services Act 2003, to direct fire and rescue authorities on the use and disposal of their assets and facilities. When we introduced that Act, which we agreed would be time limited, we made it clear that we would introduce longer-term arrangements as part of this more substantive legislation. However, I should make it quite clear that other powers in the 2003 Act that empower the Secretary of State to impose a settlement are not being re-enacted. They will end, as envisaged, two years after the legislation came into effect.
The recent pay dispute and subsequent industrial action highlighted the weaknesses of the existing fire service national joint council. Indeed, the need for change was accepted by both the Fire Brigades Union and the employers in the June 2003 pay agreement, which included an agreement to review existing NJC arrangements. The White Paper made it clear that the review must deliver more effective negotiating machinery that recognises the changing roles and structure of the service and is more inclusive of the representatives of all fire and rescue service staff. Part 4 will give the Secretary of State powers to establish negotiating bodies. However, I should make it clear that, as with other reserve powers, we do not intend to make use of them if a satisfactory outcome is achieved as a result of the current discussions through the NJC machinery.
Ms Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent, North) (Lab): Will my right hon. Friend tell the House a little more about
how clauses 31 and 32 will be implemented, given that we will have a new negotiating body, but it is still not exactly clear what the regulations will be and what guidance he will be giving in respect of those regulations? I should have thought that we would not want to end up with some kind of unique industrial relations monster, whereby negotiated agreements might not be proper because the Government might have a veto through the regulations and the guidance that he proposes to introduce. Will he give us some reassurance about how that might work?
Mr. Raynsford: Many commentators felt that the current arrangements were probably a unique industrial relations monster that needed change. That view was widely shared on all sides, which is why Bain recommended a clearer, more straightforward and more inclusive negotiating framework; why our White Paper endorsed that; and why we have put these reserve powers—I stress that they are reserve powers—in the Bill. In the meantime, both parties to the existing agreement in the NJC undertook to renegotiate the framework in the NJC. They are currently in discussion, so the position that we have adopted is that we will wait and see what proposals they make. If those proposals meet the criteria spelled out in Bain and the White Paper, we are likely to be more than happy for them to be brought into force and for us not to use our reserve powers. If we have to use our reserve powers, we will obviously consult more widely before doing so, and any details can be made public at that point.
The Bill also allows the Secretary of State to issue guidance to any negotiating body established voluntarily or by powers under the Bill, to which that body must have regard. The Government have a legitimate interest in the outcome of pay negotiations in terms of their impact on wider public sector pay policy and the operation of the fire and rescue service. The lack of clarity about the Government's legitimate concerns in such negotiations under current arrangements became all too clear during last winter's industrial dispute. By issuing our requirements in advance of negotiations, employers and employee representatives can seek agreement in full knowledge of the Government's expectations.
Part 4 of the Bill also makes provision in respect of pensions. Existing provisions under the 1947 Act are carried forward, but with two important changes. The first recognises the importance of a more diverse work force, with women as well as men serving as firefighters; secondly, there is scope for changes to deal with some of the difficulties that fire and rescue authorities face in meeting the cost of pensions.
Part 5 of the Bill replicates existing provisions to ensure the effective supply of water for the purpose of fighting fires.
Part 6 deals with supplementary powers. In particular, it gives firefighters powers to do whatever they believe is necessary and reasonable in dealing with a fire, road traffic accident or other emergency. For example, a firefighter might need to gain entry to premises or a vehicle, or to prevent a member of the public from entering an area for their own safety. The Bill also includes powers to obtain information and to investigate the cause of a fire.
The Bill abolishes the Central Fire Brigades Advisory Council. Bain concluded that the CFBAC was failing to provide the strategic advice that Ministers require. He recommended a new structure to bring clarity to the roles and responsibilities of stakeholder groups. We have made good progress in establishing the new structure. The practitioners forum and the business and community safety forum are both up and running and bring together respectively the "providers" and the "users" of the service.
I hope to announce shortly the membership of the high-level group, which I will chair, to be known as the fire and rescue service sounding board. Hon. Members will note that the Secretary of State is required to consult on the exercise of his order and regulation-making powers under the Bill, including those matters for which the CFBAC acted as statutory consultee in the past.
Part 6 also replicates the existing offence of giving a false alarm of a fire and creates a power for the Secretary of State to make payments to advisory bodies. It also includes a provision to repeal the Fire Services Act 1947, along with other consequential matters.
Part 7 deals with general and miscellaneous matters. In particular, it devolves the fire and rescue service in Wales to the National Assembly for Wales and provides for pre-Royal Assent consultation for the purposes of making orders and regulations under the Bill.
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