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Mr. Edward Davey: Would the hon. Gentleman add houses that are in multiple occupation to his list of buildings that should have regulations about sprinklers?

Andrew Bennett: Yes, I would include those premises in my list. I am assured that it is becoming increasingly possible to retro-fit sprinklers into some buildings. I understand that there is slight hesitation on the part of the industry, because at the moment, I believe, we have the amazing achievement that there has not been a fatality in any building where a sprinkler has been in place. However, that is because most sprinklers are in industrial buildings, and there is a slight worry that if they were installed in more difficult buildings the record might not be so good. Perhaps we should give them a different name. The idea that fires can be damped down by the use of a sprinkler system seems to be an extremely good one.

Richard Younger-Ross: The hon. Gentleman will know that in addition to sprinkler systems there are misting systems, which are easy to retro-fit in places such as care homes.

Andrew Bennett: I accept that. I do not claim to be an expert; I claim only that I have read and listened to a great deal of evidence on these issues.

It is prevention that is important. We heard good evidence from Merseyside and from authorities elsewhere about getting wired smoke alarms into place, and installing battery-powered alarms where wired ones cannot be placed. We must ensure that in some dwellings 10-year batteries are used, and are fitted in such a way that an enterprising seven-year-old, with the use of a ladder, cannot remove the battery to use it to power a Christmas toy, or anything else.

It is clear that we need to put work into those areas. There was a strong plea to the Select Committee from the fire officer for Cornwall, Mr. Howell, who drew attention to the danger of candles. He said that many people wanted to use candles in domestic situations but did not take into account the problems of draughts, curtains and flimsy material. It is important that the prevention message is put across. Merseyside has one of the best records in that respect, and it appears that it has rather more money at its disposal than some other fire

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authorities. It is important that support be given. A great deal of the money that is provided appears to be allocated on the basis of what was given the previous year and the year before that. Money is provided on the basis of the existence of docks and other industries, without modern circumstances being taken into account. We must examine the formulae for the allocation of money.

In addition to prevention we must take account of new problems and introduce imaginative solutions. The end-use directive on cars is turning out to be a farce. It will cost a lot of money if people burn cars. It would be a much more imaginative approach if some fire authorities and local authorities were to provide a small sum to encourage car owners to take their vehicles to a place where they could be disposed of properly. To pay a small sum to someone to bring in the vehicle will be much cheaper than sending a fire engine to deal with a fire. Even if the car is not burnt out, it will eventually be necessary to haul it off the embankment or wherever somebody has pushed it to get rid of it. We need an imaginative approach.

I was disappointed when Conservative Members questioned the need to get people from the ethnic minorities into the fire service. Their presence will be important in some areas if we are to get prevention measures to work, because people from ethnic minorities can explain problems in terms that will be acceptable to others in those communities. In the course of a different inquiry, into social cohesion, the Select Committee went to Oldham. We were worried about some things, but we were impressed by the way in which the local fire service had recruited people from the ethnic communities, who were able to do much more of the talking to people from their own communities.

It is important also to get many more women into the fire service, especially in the prevention role. I know of someone who was resistant to the fitting of a smoke alarm in their hall because it spoiled the decor. I suspect that someone with a little more sensitivity than some men have when it comes to decor might have had a better chance of persuading that individual to have the smoke alarm fitted. This is a dangerous area, but I suggest that a more balanced work force within the fire service would work better.

I do not know why the Government are so slow to get rid of the archaic disciplinary procedures, which everybody thinks are crazy. They must go, and I hope that when the Minister replies to the debate, he will tell us when that will happen.

I am disappointed that we have not heard more about the retained service. [Hon. Members: "Hear, hear."] It is all very well for the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman, the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond), to agree, but I hardly remember him mentioning the retained service. When people employed as firefighters are not fighting fires, which is most of the time, they can undertake prevention measures, but the difficulty for the retained service is that when its members are not fighting fires, they are at their workplace. When the Minister appeared before the Select Committee, he pointed out that they could

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introduce an ethos of fire prevention into those workplaces, but the retained service requires further consideration.

We must give greater recognition to employers with such a public-spirited attitude that they will let their employees have time off to act as retained firemen. We should also recognise the considerable role played in the retained service by many self-employed people who give up their time. More consideration must be given to how we turn the retained service into both an emergency service and a prevention service.

Mr. Hammond: I am sorry that I did not have time to mention every single aspect, but will the hon. Gentleman underline the fact that there is a 20 per cent. shortfall in the number of retained firefighters? Unless that shortfall is addressed it will be impossible to deliver the modernisation programme, certainly in rural areas.

Andrew Bennett: I accept that point.

The next issue is rather delicate. It touches on some of the changes that are needed in the fire authorities—that is, in the people who serve on those authorities. With the abolition of bodies such as the Greater Manchester authority, we ended up with fire bodies for a whole metropolitan area. They were, in a sense, second-hand authorities. We put this point to Jeremy Beecham of the Local Government Association. The trouble has been that in many of those areas—this includes the proposals that the Tories put forward for some of the joint boards where they introduced new unitary authorities—it is not the most dynamic councillors who join the fire authority. A leader of a council looks round and knows that he wants key people in education, social services and so on, and in order to keep the political boat sailing, he thinks, "So-and so has to go somewhere. Let's send him to the fire authority."

Angela Watkinson (Upminster) (Con): I cannot allow the hon. Gentleman to get away with that. As both a former member of Essex county council and a former member of Essex fire authority, I claim to be in some small way dynamic. He must understand that every county councillor performs several roles, and would not serve exclusively on one committee or authority.

Andrew Bennett: I thought the hon. Lady was on the county council when the council was the fire authority—in other words, the fire authority was a main committee of the county council. In my view, we get good fire authorities in that situation, and because they are part of the county council, they get the support of the other officers of the county council as well. The arrangement works well. I am concerned about the situation that has developed in quite a few places where unitary authorities were removed from those counties and a joint board was established, with some members from the county council and some from the unitary authority. I am also worried about the situation in the metropolitan areas, with a certain number of people coming from each of the councils.

Mr. Clifton-Brown: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for supporting the retention of the county councils, which is implicit in his comments about county council structures. Which does he think is the better

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system—the present system, where there is some democratic accountability with elected members, or the system proposed in the Bill, where the Secretary of State has power to appoint almost half—49 per cent.—of the members?

Andrew Bennett: In the three northern regions, the best solution would be for the elected regional assembly to be responsible for the fire service. That would be a first-class way of taking matters forward. My plea to those who appoint people to fire authorities is to make sure that they send some of the most able people. It is a significant challenge to the country to get the fire service working well.

On pensions, the Government must sort out the issues quickly. The present situation is a legacy of fire authorities that thought it was easier to pension people off than face difficult decisions, and now the bill is coming in.

I am not confident that the Audit Commission has the matter sorted out, either. We must introduce more urgency into that process.

As for the regional agenda, control rooms can work perfectly well in that framework, provided we get the new technology so that if someone phones in to report a fire, they do not have to say where it is—that information will come up on the screen, because the cell system that operates with mobile phones makes it possible to identify where every phone call comes from. That is fundamental to making the regional control rooms work.


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