| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
8.33 pm
Jim Knight (South Dorset) (Lab): I draw the attention of the House to my entry in the Register of Members' Interests as a director of the Fire Protection Association and chair of the fire protection council. I am also a patron of the National Fire Sprinkler Network and, as a fellow officer of the all-party group on fire safety, it is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Southend, West (Mr. Amess).
I very much welcome the Bill. If it had not been for 9/11, the ensuing civil contingencies and the strike, it might not have been introduced and it would have been difficult to secure parliamentary time to discuss the issues that it covers. However, it is overdue for many other reasons as a replacement for the Fire Services Act 1947. It is fitting that we are finally putting into statutory form the duty of fire and rescue services to undertake fire safety functions, attend road traffic accidents and perform other emergency tasks that we expect them to perform but which they have been undertaking on a discretionary basis.
It is, however, important that the Bill is more than an update of the 1947 Act, and, equally, that it should be more than a reaction to both 9/11 and the fire dispute. Modernisation of fire and rescue services should be genuine, and the emphasis on fire safety and prevention is a welcome modernisation that all hon. Members should support.
The Bill is straightforward, but I shall address two issues. The first, regionalisation, has been discussed at great length by some Members this evening. I reject the alarmism of the Opposition parties about centralisation, which is appropriate given the changing nature of both the threat to this country and civil contingency requirements—the Secretary of State should have
reserve powers to direct our emergency services as appropriate. It is important that the House keeps a watchful eye on how those powers are used, so it is appropriate that the Bill says that the Secretary of State should regularly report to the House. I remain comfortable with those powers given the context of the debate and Government policy on, for example, integrated risk management planning, which is all about taking a much more localised view of risk and what response is appropriate from the fire and rescue services.I support regionalisation in principle. I was a strong and passionate advocate of regional government in the Committee examining the Regional Assemblies (Preparations) Act 2003. Many of the members of that Committee have popped up in this debate, such as my right hon. Friend the Minister for Local Government, Regional Governance and Fire and the hon. Members for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey) and for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond). They were the front-line stars of that debate, and it was with some regret that I heard some of the same arguments being regurgitated over and over again this afternoon.
I support regionalisation in principle because it provides greater flexibility of response to major attacks, which we must be prepared for, and allows flexible planned responses across fire authority areas. The population is strung out around the edge of my county, Dorset, which is thinly populated in the middle. It is therefore appropriate that we have strong relationships with Somerset and Wiltshire, which border Dorset. It is equally true that we need a strong relationship with Hampshire, which is not in the south-west region, and I welcome the provisions that require fire and rescue services to develop their relationships with other authorities. The Bill does not specify that an iron curtain will fall around each region, and it is clear that relationships should extend across borders where that is appropriate.
The House should acknowledge the economies of scale that are achievable through regionalisation. I am sure that the level of council tax concerns every hon. Member, and we all get our ears bent about it by our constituents. In many constituencies, the precept for fire authorities will be identified separately for the first time this year, and I am sure that our constituents expect us to do what we can to achieve economies of scale through policies such as regionalisation to decrease precepts. There have already been discussions about regional procurement in the south-west, and it is appropriate that they should take place in a strategic context, which is possible only through a regional management board structure.
Mr. Clifton-Brown: Given the hon. Gentleman's enthusiasm for a south-west regional fire authority, does he think that his constituents in South Dorset would pay a higher or lower precept if their fire authority remained as Dorset fire authority rather than becoming part of a south-west regional fire authority?
Jim Knight: That is clearly a key question. I suspect that the cost may rise as the new system is implemented, but I am confident—otherwise I would not stand up and advocate it—that there would be significant savings over the medium and long terms. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will have seen the table in the Select
Committee report listing the different costs of regional control rooms. My right hon. Friend the Minister referred to the contrast between the unit cost of £18 in the London control room and some £136 in the Isle of Wight. We must examine possible savings very carefully and go forward on that basis.I shall voice some of my concerns about regional control rooms shortly, but, over the medium and long term, I think that we can look forward to savings.
I have concerns about the implementation of regionalisation, and especially the introduction of regional control rooms. I have spoken to the control staff who operate the Dorset control room and to members of the Fire Brigades Union about their concerns in Dorset. Following my discussions with my right hon. Friend the Minister, I have been able to alleviate many of their anxieties, but there was considerable concern about the loss of local knowledge through the introduction of regional control rooms. As I understand it, the new software that is coming on stream, combined with the European directive on mobile telecommunications networks, means that it will be possible to pinpoint highly accurately where a call is coming from, even if it is coming from a mobile phone. I was concerned that only a cell would be identified, but I have been reassured by my right hon. Friend the Minister that that will not be so.
That leads me to concern about how the software is implemented. Dorset introduced extremely up-to-date software for its control room and it took it three years to iron out all the problems in that software. Given the importance of the reliability of that software, I ask my right hon. Friend to give us some reassurance on how that reliability will be tested and how the software will be implemented to ensure, given the tight time frame, that the operation can be carried out reliably.
I am concerned also about integrated risk management plans. We must ensure that a regional control room can account for the mosaic of such plans that will make up the region. We must also ensure that the software, the operators or however the response is co-ordinated in that control room can account for different approaches, and certainly operate across borders of fire authorities even if such authorities have not been formed.
I have in mind especially automated fire alarms, which have become a significant problem, given the number of false alarms which are causing a real drain on fire authorities. In Oxfordshire, Somerset and elsewhere there is discussion about not responding to automated fire alarms, which I find a most disturbing prospect. If we have different authorities within a region sharing a regional control room, each with a different policy on, for example, automated fire alarms, there is potential for some confusion. That is one area in which I would like to see the Government be more prescriptive about what policy is required. It convinces me that we should accelerate the process that leads towards regional fire authorities, much against the wishes of the Conservative party.
Richard Younger-Ross: I have heard from the fire authority in my area that it, too, has concern about automatic fire alarms. I have also heard talk about non-
response. The authority's proposal is that there should be a £250 charge for repeat offences. That is not for the first time or the second time, but when a call is made three or four times. At least the authority could recoup some of its cost for call-out.
Jim Knight: I, too, have heard the notion of charging for attendance. One of the groups that works with the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister and reports to my right hon. Friend the Minister has a task-and-finish group that is considering automated fire alarms. It is chaired by Ken Knight, the commissioner for fire and emergency planning, London fire brigade. I have had discussions with him about the approach that should be taken.
Much can be learned from the issue of burglar alarms. The police had a problem with many false alarms some years ago. The burglar alarm industry got together with the police authorities and chief constables to agree to a protocol and a resolution of the problem. That involves the regular maintenance of burglar alarms and an agreement whereby the police will attend the premises as long as the alarm is regularly maintained by an accredited maintenance engineer.
Something similar could be worked out for automated fire alarms.
The hon. Gentleman should not forget that one of the main offenders in respect of false alarms from AFAs is the national health service. Some people say it is all down to nurses making toast. That can be overplayed, but there are simple ways of dealing with the problem—first, by checking the siting of the smoke alarm and making sure it is not located too close to a toaster, and secondly, by replacing the smoke alarm with a heat detector-based alarm system, so that instead of the smoke activating the alarm, the heat caused by a fire would activate it, in the same way as a sprinkler works.
That leads me neatly to the next issue on which I wanted to comment, and one that has not been touched on at all, I am happy to say: water supply. That may not seem a contentious issue. I am pleased to see that among the responsibilities of water companies is the responsibility to provide a water supply, to provide it at nil cost for emergencies, to provide it through fire hydrants and to provide it at adequate pressure. I know my right hon. Friend the Minister is aware of a problem concerning water supply for sprinklers. In some areas there is insufficient pressure in the water system to allow the sprinkler system to work effectively. That is a major stumbling block to spreading the use of sprinklers, with the fire death savings that could be made as a result.
As has been said, no one has ever died in this country in a fire in a building with a sprinkler system that has been properly maintained. I listened carefully to the hon. Member for Southend, West (Mr. Amess), but as long as such a system is properly maintained, it is more than 99 per cent. reliable. We should grasp any opportunity that the Bill provides to make sure that fire sprinklers work properly and safely.
Some two and a half years ago I convened a meeting between members of the National Fire Sprinkler Network and Water UK to facilitate a discussion about the problems of pressure in the water supply. We
thought we had reached an agreement but, sadly, Water UK seems to have backed off from that agreement because of concerns about people taking water supply illegally out of a sprinkler system to avoid paying the bill from their water meter, and all sorts of spurious reasons which, to me, do not stack up, given that when a sprinkler is activated, a loud noise alarm goes off outside the house. If someone wanted to fill their kettle from their fire sprinkler, they would not do so at risk of a loud noise and a light going on outside. I ask the Government to speak to the water industry, see whether a voluntary agreement is imminent, and if not, take powers in the Bill to ensure that the supply of water for sprinklers can be arranged.In summary—I would like to allow others to contribute to the debate; I do not want to hog the limelight, as others may have done—I welcome the Bill. I will make every effort to ease its progress, as I am asked to do, but I would be grateful if my right hon. Friend the Minister and the Under-Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member for Corby (Phil Hope), would respond to the points that I have raised.
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |