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8.48 pm
Adam Price (East Carmarthen and Dinefwr) (PC): The Bill, as the Minister said, devolves substantial powers to the National Assembly for Wales. I intend this week to vote against one Bill that devolves powers to Wales. To do so twice would be a little churlish for a nationalist party, so we shall support the proposals on Second Reading.
It is interesting to note that the Fire Brigades Union in Wales is an enthusiastic advocate of the Bill. It has been writing to Welsh MPs urging us to support the Bill. I have not seen the FBU recently acting as cheerleaders for the Government, but it welcomes the proposals—in large part, I think, because with devolution, there will at least be a shield from any regressive proposals that may emanate from Westminster in future. We welcome the devolution aspect of the Bill.
But for Wales, devolution does not end at Cardiff bay. It has to work right down into local government. It would be a matter for the National Assembly, but I would not want to see the creation of an all-Wales national fire and rescue service. The three combined fire authorities in Wales, created by the previous Conservative Government under local government reorganisation, do not have the same connection with the localities that they serve that the previous county-based fire authorities had, and in saying that, I echo some of the comments made by other hon. Members.
Having observed the debate and as a keen supporter of elected regional government in England, I believe that one of the dangers is that elected regional assemblies will be seen as the basis for the attrition of the powers of local government; that rather than decentralising from Whitehall they will arrogate to themselves the powers that exist at local level. One reason why we succeeded in Wales, although by a narrow margin, in winning the referendum was that we allayed precisely those fears among local government networks that an elected, convincing assembly in Wales would not be a Trojan horse to deprive local government of its powers.
It is interesting, listening to the debate in England, that the Bill eliminates one of the tensions that exists within new Labour. The tension between the desire to
decentralise and promote local innovation and flexibility on the one hand and on the other a desire to push through modernisation of public services, sometimes impatiently, through recentralising power, was well presented by the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond). That tension is right at the heart of the Bill.There is a new currency to the debate, because we are told that the new localism—to use that new shiny phrase—will be the theme of the Government's third term. We have had a speech from the Home Secretary, a pamphlet from the Minister for Crime Reduction, Policing and Community Safety, and in the last few days, speeches from the right hon. Members for Tyneside, North (Mr. Byers) and for Darlington (Mr. Milburn) on the new localism. There is clearly a consensus that there is a strong case for devolution in the case of fire and rescue services. A fire authority that is accountable to its local community and has the power and resources to respond to local concerns is, in theory at least, likely to be more responsive than a fire service that is driven by central diktat.
We have seen in the debate and in last year's measures, that there is an unresolved tension in Government policy. Last year, albeit with the sound and fury of the fire dispute in the background, we had the Fire Services Act 2003, which, for a period, centralised powers in terms of conditions and gave wide-ranging powers in relation to the use or disposal of property that are carried forward in this Bill. On the one hand we had a centralising measure; on the other hand, in the Local Government Act 2003, we repealed a provision of the Fire Services Act 1947 that required fire authorities to have the permission of the Secretary of State to close a fire station or to reduce the number of full-time firefighters.
We saw that tension last year, we see it in the Bill and we have heard it in the debate tonight. The real question that needs to be answered is whether these measures will create a fire service that is more or less responsive to local need. Some of the reserve powers that the Minister has claimed will be used only in extremis are drafted very broadly, as has been said. Clause 22 allows the Secretary of State to require the authority to do something, to stop doing something or not to do something. That is certainly a first for me.
I have never seen a clause drafted that widely. Perhaps the Minister can tell me what is the difference between stopping doing something and not doing something. The clause goes on to refer to the "economy, efficiency and effectiveness" of the fire and rescue authorities. Apparently, fire authorities could be required to close stations or to vary the numbers of staff in particular stations. Those are micro-level decisions about operational effectiveness. Other broad, centralising provisions include compelling a fire authority to use particular equipment and services, then making it pay for the privilege.
Regionalisation has led to widespread concern not only in the Fire Brigades Union, but in the Chief and Assistant Chief Fire Officers Association, which states that more research is needed on regionalisation and argues that there is a lack of focus and detail as regards the timing of any future regionalisation, which deserves more scrutiny and clarity. That was echoed by the Local Government Association. I fear that this is another
kneejerk response to a complex problem. Restructuring is always a popular solution in government because formal structures are among the few things that politicians have direct control over and can change. Restructuring and institutional change is often presented as a straightforward solution to a complex problem, but we saw the problems that it created in Wales during the creation of the 22 new local health boards. The Haskins review of the rural agencies in England gave the same kind of simplistic response.Institutional restructuring is often a recipe for more organisational chaos or inertia: it seldom illustrates the real causes of poor performance. Public services are much better improved through incremental, adaptive change through interactive processes that directly involve practitioners, professionals and service users in shaping the end result, but the Government's proposals for the fire service were ill thought out and rushed through with little opportunity for practitioners to be involved in the process. That was partly because the FBU was alienated by Bain, which it saw as a fait accompli. As a result, one of the main institutional bodies in the fire service was not involved with the review that is the basis of the Government's proposals. Now, the FBU is asking the Government if, instead of rushing through these proposals, they will allow local pilots to take place to evaluate the results of different solutions more effectively and to establish best practice more incrementally.
On pay and pensions, will the Minister confirm that it is intended fully to devolve the pay negotiation and pension elements of the Bill to the National Assembly for Wales? That would allow the Welsh Assembly Government to create under the Bill a separate negotiating body in Wales.
That would be a departure from current practice. I am sure that the FBU in Wales would welcome it; my party certainly does. However, I would be grateful if the Minister could confirm that that is the intention.
On behalf of my colleagues in the Scottish National party, I want to draw attention to a few provisions on pay and pensions that affect Scotland. Will the Minister confirm that in clauses 33 to 35, which refer to the "Secretary of State", the provisions are devolved to the Scottish Executive? The Bill does not make that clear.
The Secretary of State is required to report annually to Parliament on the national framework. Will the Minister confirm that the National Assembly for Wales will not be required to report to this place and that the debate on the Welsh national framework will happen where it should—in the Assembly?
9 pm
Mr. Henry Bellingham (North-West Norfolk) (Con): I declare my interests, although I am not sure how they are relevant to the debate.
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for East Carmarthen and Dinefwr (Adam Price) who speaks a great deal of sense. Although he is a nationalist, I am sure that he is also a Tory at heart because he shares many of our ideals. He was right to mention a perverse contradiction in Government policy. They promote localism, yet there is often a desire and a drive for increasing centralisation. In the context of the Bill, the
Minister has spoken of trying to centralise pay bargaining, yet in the health service, he is trying to move in the opposite direction.We have had a good debate, which gives me a chance to pay tribute to the Norfolk fire service. It does a superb job of serving the local community and its professionalism and commitment is unsurpassed. I have visited King's Lynn fire station on several occasions and I am always impressed by the professionalism of the men in Norfolk's fire service. We must not forget the retained service, because there are several retained fire stations in west Norfolk, including Terrington St. Clement, Great Massingham and the Dersingham-Sandringham station. There is an esprit de corps and camaraderie that one must witness to understand it fully.
Many retained firefighters are former military men and women. They might take umbrage at some of the Minister's remarks about the fire service not being representative of society as a whole and his belief that we should embrace an agenda of inclusiveness and diversity. I do not especially want the fire service to be representative of society as a whole; I want it to sort out fires, save lives and rescue people from car accidents. My constituents want the same. They do not want the fire service to be used for social engineering and political correctness. Of course, it would be a good idea to get more blacks, Asians and women into the fire service, but surely what we need are dedicated and committed people. They will not be representative of society as a whole because the service is uniformed and people join it for special reasons: because they want to be part of a service that is dedicated and committed to the local community. Many will be former military people, and if we begin talking about quotas or going on about the diversity agenda, it will simply undermine morale in the fire service.
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