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Mr. Laurence Robertson: My hon. Friend has greater experience of these matters than me—generally—so he will know that that does not just happen at a poorly attended dog track; it can also happen at a fairly poorly attended horserace meeting.
Mr. Page: My hon. Friend makes a valid point and emphasises how appalling it would be if there were so many pools that they became little puddles and the odds became farcical.
I shall continue with the theme of what will happen after those seven years. I am not that exercised about the European Union's reaction to the monopolies that may occur in pool betting. The French have a strong monopoly and I cannot see them giving it up lightly and easily because some commission or other says something, and we should take a degree of comfort from that.
Commission or no commission, the Bill says that competition will be allowed after seven years, which is fine in theory, but the questions just keep rolling on. Would new entrants have to form duplicate racing trusts for their money to benefit racing?
Would courses have to take compulsory extra kiosks to sit alongside the Tote kiosks? As pool betting expands, will there be a licence fee? How would that be calculated? Would racecourse associations want that? Would pool sizes be regulated in any way? The prospects for the situation after seven years are murky, to say the least.
Mr. Salmond: The hon. Gentleman demonstrates huge expertise in these matters, but he will know that the process could be more insidious than he suggests. When the Tote and large bookmaking chains were in an organisation called Tote Direct, the chains were reluctant to see the Tote provide better value for the consumer to maintain margins in the pool market. It might even transpire, after seven years, that the cost of non-intervention in the marketplace is to increase the margins—to the detriment of customers.
Mr. Page: The hon. Gentleman makes the point that the route ahead, in seven years' time, is indeed, let us say,
unclear. I shall stand down at the next election, which will no doubt be welcomed by many people, especially my successor, but we should endeavour either to answer the questions now or to refuse to tie the hands of those people who will take on the job in the future.I am not sure how my hon. Friend the Member for South-East Cambridgeshire (Mr. Paice) will deal with amendment No. 1, because it contains two alternatives in paragraphs (c) and (d), but I shall support him whatever he does.
Mr. Paice: What a happy coincidence. Should I be fortunate enough to catch your eye at the end of the debate, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I shall attempt to move paragraph (d) of amendment No. 1, excluding paragraph (c). I accept that they are mutually contradictory: they were meant to be two separate amendments.
Mr. Page: I congratulate my hon. Friend, because he may have set a trend. We can table a host of different provisions under one amendment and then mix and match to get the right one, depending on the outcome of the debate—even though that might make it difficult for the Minister, who would need an omnibus brief.
My great expertise in gambling has been mentioned, but it has not benefited my lifestyle. However, I serve on the gambling review committee, which is considering all aspects of the changes in gambling in this country. As part of that, we are considering the future form of the Gambling Commission, which will take over from the Gaming Board and will have many more powers and strengths. I shall not ask the Minister to accept my hon. Friend's omnibus amendment, because that would be a bridge too far, but it would be helpful if the Minister could make one of his Delphic announcements—as he did on the seven-year licence—about considering the future of pool betting after seven years in some shape or form as the Bill progresses through the House. We do not want to tie the hands of those who will address the issue in seven years' time on the basis of the imperfect knowledge that we have today. We need to see how successfully the Tote operates in the market, and then we can decide.
My hon. Friend's omnibus amendment No. 1 mentions an "independent inquiry", and I wonder whether the Gambling Commission could be asked to consider the issue and advise as necessary. I hope that the Minister agrees that my hon. Friend has made a valuable point.
5.15 pm
Jim Sheridan (West Renfrewshire) (Lab): I was disappointed to hear that the hon. Gentleman is standing down at the next election. I certainly hope that he enjoys a longer retirement than some of the horses and dogs that are retired from racing and finish up as sausagemeat.
The hon. Gentleman referred to an independent inquiry. In view of the point made by the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond) about honesty and integrity in the horseracing business, perhaps there should be such an inquiry, as more punters, or consumers, would be attracted if they felt that the industry was honest. The hon. Member for South-West
Hertfordshire (Mr. Page) mentioned odds-on favourites. On Saturday, there were more winners at 66:1, 33:1 or 20:1 than odds-on favourites, so surely we should have an independent inquiry into who sets the prices and into how corrupt the horseracing and greyhound businesses are.
Mr. Page: You, Mr. Deputy Speaker, would rightly call me to account if I were to go through the list set out by the hon. Gentleman. It is not only inaccurate but highly emotive. The hon. Gentleman is not inaccurate, however, about the need to care for greyhounds and horses that can no longer race. I am with him 100 per cent. on that point. I sincerely hope that those animals do not end up as sausage meat—at least for the UK market, as that would cause a considerable outcry. There is support for a number of establishments that retrain racehorses and there are other organisations that give homes to greyhounds. Animal welfare is becoming a greater priority and I agree with the hon. Gentleman about that.
On the hon. Gentleman's other point, however, I have to say that the nature of betting is such that there are not more winners at 33:1 than at odds-on favourite. That is a statistical guarantee. If he wants me to give him a lesson on how to lose money through betting, I am only too willing to do so, but those 33:1 winners do not come up with the frequency that he imagines.
I shall draw my remarks to a conclusion. The amendment proposed by my hon. Friend the Member for South-East Cambridgeshire (Mr. Paice) is the right one, and I hope that the Minister can give us a little comfort in his response and tell us that the amendment will be considered as the Bill progresses.
Mr. Caborn: Yet again, we are rehearsing our arguments in Committee. For the sake of clarity, I shall address one or two things that seem to have got mixed up during the debate.
We want a secure revenue stream for racing through the Tote. After seven years, I do not know whether the Tote will operate purely through the pool or through fixed odds betting. Who knows? The world changes, and we have already seen tremendous change in the industry, so the Tote may go in for betting exchanges. I do not know, but one thing is certain—if it wants to do that, it can, because we are giving it all the opportunities available to the private sector actors in the industry. We are raising the public sector constraints, so that the Tote has every opportunity.
The management of the Tote is second to none and, with a well-run trust and the new freedoms, I would expect it to create, over seven years with some protection, a business that will be able to enter the marketplace and guarantee a funding stream for the industry. Concern has been expressed about that point, but we are ensuring seven years of protection so that the Tote can enter the marketplace effectively.
It is interesting to hear some Opposition Members, especially the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) who has always been the great advocate of the marketplace, coming up with support for protectionism. In effect, that is what he is proposing. He
has probably spoken up for the marketplace more often than anyone else on the Opposition Benches, but he will go into the Lobby, contrary to his ideological beliefs, in support of even more protection than the seven years on which we all agree. Had we not agreed to that seven-year period—had we not discussed it in Departments and given that guarantee—we would not have been debating these provisions. Furthermore, I would not have been able to include the seven-year provision in the Bill, because there was tremendous pressure to go straight into the marketplace, pool betting and all, including the Tote as it stands.All that I say to hon. Members is that we took a lot of time to reach an agreement on the seven-year period—first in government and then with the industry—and we believe that it will give the Tote the opportunity to go into the marketplace, and that it will ensure that there will be a future revenue stream for racing.
Mr. Redwood: It is a pity that the Minister decided to make an inaccurate partisan point. I had urged my hon. Friend the Member for South-East Cambridgeshire (Mr. Paice) to gravitate from paragraph (c) in amendment No. 1 towards paragraph (d) and thus move the provision in a more market-oriented direction. I want one of the independent inquiry's terms of reference to be to consider how to ensure that the market can operate in the interest of customers. The question is how that could be best designed, given the way in which pool betting and betting in general operate. The Minister is being a little naughty in suggesting that I am trying to get away from the market, because I want an effective market.
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