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Mr. Caborn: That is a somewhat obscure interpretation of what paragraph (c) of amendment No. 1 would bring about—[Interruption.] I am sorry; I meant to say paragraph (d). Conservative Members have got me confused by the number of amendments that have been tabled. We are debating whether we can have a continued revenue stream into racing.

Mr. Kelvin Hopkins (Luton, North) (Lab): I welcome the seven-year provision. I speak as one who has spent far too much of his money at the Tote—indeed, I have contributed to it over many years at the Cheltenham festival and elsewhere. I have trusted the Tote. Does my right hon. Friend agree that we do not need a public inquiry? The seven-year period will give the Government, his Department and the House plenty of time to assess how the system is working and will allow possible adjustments to Government policy if necessary.

Mr. Caborn: May I repeat again that the Government believe that the decision is right? Eighty per cent. of the Tote's business is not the pool; it is fixed-odds betting out in the marketplace where it competes with all the other bookies. I do not know whether that percentage will change over the next seven years—it is entirely up to the Tote, as an organisation. The significant difference between the Tote and companies such as Ladbrokes and William Hill is that its profit will go back to the racing

2 Feb 2004 : Column 559

industry through a racing trust. We should protect that revenue stream back to racing, and I have every faith in the Tote.

Several hon. Members rose—

Mr. Caborn: Let me go on. If we move to the end of the seven-year period, what will we be left with? Let us assume that we had the status quo and that the ratio was still 80:20. We would not be selling the Tote into the marketplace, but the pool. The Tote would still have all its shops and its brand, and it would be in the marketplace to bid with any other firm for 20 per cent. of its business. That is what we are talking about.

Mr. Salmond: Will the Minister address what I said about the Tote acting to keep the rest of the market honest for consumers? As I was listening to the tale of woe about Saturday from the hon. Member for West Renfrewshire (Jim Sheridan), it struck me that I probably should have declared an interest—I now willingly do that. If the hon. Gentleman had followed the sensible advice in my racing column on Saturday, he would be feeling a lot better today.

Mr. Caborn: I do not want to get involved in the internal politics of Scotland.

On the 20 per cent. figure, I genuinely hope that the pool will grow under the new arrangements. I hope that the constraints that we will take away from the Tote will mean that it may market the pool aspect of its business more aggressively. There is every argument for the point that the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond) made—it was strongly made when we received advice to sell the Tote into the marketplace on day 1. We believed that it was necessary to put the Tote in a position in which it could grow its business, including, hopefully, the pool aspect of it.

I, for one, would like that to happen so that we bring a countervailing force to fixed-odd betting. It is good for the punter and the marketplace. That is why lifting the constraints off the Tote so that it can aggressively market its portfolio should allow the pool part of its business to grow, probably even against that fixed-odd betting.

Tony Cunningham (Workington) (Lab): Does my right hon. Friend agree that one of the main reasons why racing is so popular is television coverage? "Attheraces", which covers almost all races, gives tremendous coverage, people become interested and go on to watch racing at meetings. Is he not concerned that by 29 March "Attheraces" might stop covering horse racing? There is even a threat that the grand national will not be covered on television. If we lose that coverage, people might lose interest. Is he worried that that could change the circumstances surrounding the industry?

Mr. Caborn: It could. We have been trying to bring certainty to the industry and I hope that the seven-year licence for the Tote will bring stability. Indeed, the concession to include that in the Bill is a continuation of our attempt to achieve stability. The industry is very important and has a tremendous effect on the rural

2 Feb 2004 : Column 560

economy. I hope that people who are negotiating in the industry will take note of the signs that are coming out of the Government.

The case has not been made for amendment No. 1. The Bill ensures that the revenue stream continues into racing because the Tote will be sold into a racing trust. We have given assurances in government and beyond on the seven-year period. It was part of the negotiations on whether we put the Tote straight into the marketplace or allow it to reposition itself under the seven-year licence and then expose the pool part of it to the marketplace.

Mr. Paice: I emphasise that we are not necessarily talking about a subsequent licensing of the Tote. The amendment suggests that there should be an inquiry on whether a single exclusive licence should operate pool betting. That is not necessarily related to the Tote, but is in the interests of the overall gambling market, to which several hon. Members referred. The issue of a single pool is important. We simply suggest that we should not make the decision now, but leave it to an inquiry in five or six years' time.

Mr. Caborn: There have been inquiries into the pool. The competition authority in Europe has been involved. The Office of Fair Trading clearly recommended that the pool should be sold into the marketplace and that it was for the marketplace to decide whether it should stay as a single pool or be broken up. We took a slightly different view and wanted a halfway house. Discussions in Whitehall led us to believe that the Tote needed some protection so that it could reposition itself by moving from the public sector to the private sector under a seven-year exclusive licence. That was the agreement and we will stick to it. Had we not settled on that, we would not have been able to discuss the amendments.

There is a strong rationale to the agreement. It gives the industry a revenue stream and the punter choice after seven years. It also gives the Tote, as a business, opportunities that it could never have had when it was in the public sector. On that basis, I ask the hon. Member for South-East Cambridgeshire (Mr. Paice) not to press amendment No. 1 to a vote.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment made: No. 12, in page 5, leave out from beginning of line 10 to 'terms' in line 11.—[Mr. Caborn.]

Mr. Deputy Speaker: We come to amendment No. 1 to be moved formally. As there has been a printing error, I shall read out the text of the amendment to be moved so that the House is clear. It is as follows:

Amendment proposed—[Mr. Paice.]

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The House proceeded to a Division.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the No Lobby.

The House having divided: Ayes 136, Noes 285.

2 Feb 2004 : Column 561

Division No. 40
[5:30 am


Allan, Richard
Amess, David
Arbuthnot, rh James
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Bacon, Richard
Baker, Norman
Baldry, Tony
Barker, Gregory
Beith, rh A. J.
Bellingham, Henry
Bercow, John
Blunt, Crispin
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)
Brady, Graham
Brake, Tom (Carshalton)
Brazier, Julian
Breed, Colin
Brooke, Mrs Annette L.
Burnett, John
Burns, Simon
Burt, Alistair
Cable, Dr. Vincent
Carmichael, Alistair
Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)
Chidgey, David
Chope, Christopher
Clarke, rh Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Curry, rh David
Davis, rh David (Haltemprice & Howden)
Djanogly, Jonathan
Duncan, Alan (Rutland)
Fabricant, Michael
Field, Mark (Cities of London & Westminster)
Flight, Howard
Foster, Don (Bath)
Gale, Roger (N Thanet)
Garnier, Edward
Gibb, Nick (Bognor Regis)
Gillan, Mrs Cheryl
Goodman, Paul
Gray, James (N Wilts)
Green, Damian (Ashford)
Greenway, John
Grieve, Dominic
Hague, rh William
Hammond, Philip
Hawkins, Nick
Heath, David
Heathcoat-Amory, rh David
Hendry, Charles
Holmes, Paul
Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)
Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)
Hunter, Andrew
Jack, rh Michael
Jackson, Robert (Wantage)
Jenkin, Bernard
Keetch, Paul
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Kirkwood, Sir Archy
Knight, rh Greg (E Yorkshire)
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lamb, Norman
Lansley, Andrew
Laws, David (Yeovil)
Leigh, Edward
Lewis, Dr. Julian (New Forest E)
Liddell-Grainger, Ian
Lidington, David
Llwyd, Elfyn
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter (M-Worcs)
McIntosh, Miss Anne
Mackay, rh Andrew
Maclean, rh David
McLoughlin, Patrick
Malins, Humfrey
Maples, John
Mawhinney, rh Sir Brian
May, Mrs Theresa
Mercer, Patrick
Mitchell, Andrew (Sutton Coldfield)
Moss, Malcolm
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Oaten, Mark (Winchester)
O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)
Öpik, Lembit
Osborne, George (Tatton)
Ottaway, Richard
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Portillo, rh Michael
Pugh, Dr. John
Randall, John
Redwood, rh John
Rendel, David
Robathan, Andrew
Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)
Russell, Bob (Colchester)
Salmond, Alex
Selous, Andrew
Shephard, rh Mrs Gillian
Shepherd, Richard
Simmonds, Mark
Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns & Kincardine)
Spelman, Mrs Caroline
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spring, Richard
Stanley, rh Sir John
Streeter, Gary
Stunell, Andrew
Swayne, Desmond
Swire, Hugo (E Devon)
Syms, Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Teather, Sarah
Tonge, Dr. Jenny
Tyrie, Andrew
Viggers, Peter
Walter, Robert
Waterson, Nigel
Watkinson, Angela
Webb, Steve (Northavon)
Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann
Wiggin, Bill
Wilkinson, John
Willetts, David
Willis, Phil
Wilshire, David
Young, rh Sir George

Tellers for the Ayes:

Hugh Robertson and
Mr. Mark Francois


Abbott, Ms Diane
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)
Alexander, Douglas
Allen, Graham
Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary
Atherton, Ms Candy
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, John
Bailey, Adrian
Baird, Vera
Banks, Tony
Barnes, Harry
Barron, rh Kevin
Battle, John
Bayley, Hugh
Beard, Nigel
Bell, Sir Stuart
Bennett, Andrew
Berry, Roger
Best, Harold
Betts, Clive
Blears, Ms Hazel
Blizzard, Bob
Borrow, David
Bradley, rh Keith (Withington)
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, rh Nicholas (Newcastle E Wallsend)
Brown, Russell (Dumfries)
Browne, Desmond
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burnham, Andy
Byers, rh Stephen
Caborn, rh Richard
Cairns, David
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Caplin, Ivor
Cawsey, Ian (Brigg)
Challen, Colin
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)
Chaytor, David
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)
Clark, Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)
Clark, Paul (Gillingham)
Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & Chryston)
Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)
Clelland, David
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ms Ann
Cohen, Harry
Coleman, Iain
Corston, Jean
Cox, Tom (Tooting)
Crausby, David
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, Ann (Keighley)
Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Cummings, John
Cunningham, rh Dr. Jack (Copeland)
Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)
Cunningham, Tony (Workington)
Dalyell, Tam
Darling, rh Alistair
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
Davidson, Ian
Davies, rh Denzil (Llanelli)
Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Dawson, Hilton
Dean, Mrs Janet
Denham, rh John
Dhanda, Parmjit
Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)
Dobson, rh Frank
Donohoe, Brian H.
Doran, Frank
Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)
Drew, David (Stroud)
Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
Edwards, Huw
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Ennis, Jeff (Barnsley E)
Etherington, Bill
Field, rh Frank (Birkenhead)
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flint, Caroline
Flynn, Paul (Newport W)
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye)
Foulkes, rh George
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Gardiner, Barry
George, rh Bruce (Walsall S)
Gerrard, Neil
Gilroy, Linda
Goggins, Paul
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grogan, John
Hain, rh Peter
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hall, Patrick (Bedford)
Hamilton, David (Midlothian)
Hanson, David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)
Havard, Dai (Merthyr Tydfil & Rhymney)
Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Hepburn, Stephen
Heppell, John
Hesford, Stephen
Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia
Heyes, David
Hodge, Margaret
Hoon, rh Geoffrey
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, George (Knowsley N & Sefton E)
Howells, Dr. Kim
Hoyle, Lindsay
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Humble, Mrs Joan
Hurst, Alan (Braintree)
Hutton, rh John
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate)
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Jamieson, David
Jenkins, Brian
Johnson, Alan (Hull W)
Jones, Helen (Warrington N)
Jones, Kevan (N Durham)
Jowell, rh Tessa
Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)
Kaufman, rh Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keen, Alan (Feltham)
Keen, Ann (Brentford)
Kelly, Ruth (Bolton W)
Kemp, Fraser
Khabra, Piara S.
Kidney, David
King, Andy (Rugby)
King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green & Bow)
Knight, Jim (S Dorset)
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lammy, David
Lawrence, Mrs Jackie
Laxton, Bob (Derby N)
Lazarowicz, Mark
Leslie, Christopher
Levitt, Tom (High Peak)
Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)
Lewis, Terry (Worsley)
Linton, Martin
Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)
Love, Andrew
Lucas, Ian (Wrexham)
Luke, Iain (Dundee E)
McAvoy, Thomas
McCabe, Stephen
McCartney, rh Ian
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonnell, John
MacDougall, John
McFall, John
McGuire, Mrs Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McKenna, Rosemary
Mackinlay, Andrew
McNamara, Kevin
MacShane, Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
McWalter, Tony
McWilliam, John
Mahmood, Khalid
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Mann, John (Bassetlaw)
Marris, Rob (Wolverh'ton SW)
Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)
Marshall, David (Glasgow Shettleston)
Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)
Martlew, Eric
Meale, Alan (Mansfield)
Michael, rh Alun
Milburn, rh Alan
Miliband, David
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moonie, Dr. Lewis
Mountford, Kali
Mudie, George
Munn, Ms Meg
Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)
Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
Norris, Dan (Wansdyke)
O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
O'Hara, Edward
O'Neill, Martin
Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Perham, Linda
Picking, Anne
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter (Burnley)
Plaskitt, James
Pollard, Kerry
Pope, Greg (Hyndburn)
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Quinn, Lawrie
Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N)
Reed, Andy (Loughborough)
Reid, rh Dr. John (Hamilton N & Bellshill)
Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW)
Rooney, Terry
Roy, Frank (Motherwell)
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Ms Christine (City of Chester)
Salter, Martin
Sarwar, Mohammad
Savidge, Malcolm
Sedgemore, Brian
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Short, rh Clare
Simon, Siôn (B'ham Erdington)
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, rh Chris (Islington S & Finsbury)
Smith, Geraldine (Morecambe & Lunesdale)
Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)
Soley, Clive
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Steinberg, Gerry
Stewart, David (Inverness E & Lochaber)
Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Stinchcombe, Paul
Stoate, Dr. Howard
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Tami, Mark (Alyn)
Taylor, rh Ann (Dewsbury)
Taylor, Dari (Stockton S)
Taylor, David (NW Leics)
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mark (S Derbyshire)
Touhig, Don (Islwyn)
Trickett, Jon
Truswell, Paul
Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)
Vaz, Keith (Leicester E)
Vis, Dr. Rudi
Walley, Ms Joan
Ward, Claire
Watson, Tom (W Bromwich E)
Watts, David
White, Brian
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, Malcolm
Wills, Michael
Winnick, David
Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
Woodward, Shaun
Woolas, Phil
Worthington, Tony
Wright, Anthony D. (Gt Yarmouth)
Wright, Tony (Cannock)

Tellers for the Noes:

Joan Ryan and
Margaret Moran

Question accordingly negatived.

2 Feb 2004 : Column 564

Amendment made: No. 13, in page 5, line 44 [Clause 8], leave out from 'Crown,' to end of line 47.—[Mr. Jim Murphy.]

Clause 10

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