---

Mr. Weir: I had some reservations when the hon. Member for Witney (Mr. Cameron) first raised this question on Second Reading. Like him, I have a disabled child, although not one who will qualify for a baby bond. I have been largely persuaded by his argument today, which has a lot of merit.

One problem will arise as disabled children move towards the age of 18. As we get older, we worry what will happen to our children once we are not about—disabled children survive to an older age than they might have done in earlier times. Some thought must be given to what happens to baby bonds once disabled children turn 18. Many children will never be in a position to manage money on their own. We must examine how we can address the needs of disabled children after they are 18, especially when their parents are no longer able to cope or are no longer around.

The hon. Gentleman said that new clause 1 was more controversial than amendment No. 16, but he has persuaded me of his argument. As he rightly says, throughout life disabled children often need special care or special items. Whether we like it or not, NHS provision of specific items is to some extent a postcode lottery. It is also possible for the NHS and the parent to disagree about what the child requires. The parent will often be able to get equipment or care only if they can fund it or if they can persuade a local charity to help. Up and down the country, many local charities specifically deal with children in such circumstances, but many parents would rather not go through that process. New clause 1 has a lot of merit, and I am prepared to support it.

As I mentioned in my intervention, my one worry about new clause 1 is the structure of child trust funds. We debated the issue in Committee, where I argued that child trust funds should permit an account similar to that offered by a building society. The Financial Secretary gave a good explanation of why that is not possible, and at great length discussed with the hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Laws) her preference for an equity-based investment because of its growth over an 18-year period. Our discussion of the economy went back as far as William of Orange, which was before the Union, so that does not apply to Scotland. The point is that over any given 18-year period, growth is better in an equity-based investment than in other types of investment.

My concern is that if new clause 2 permits regular—or perhaps irregular—withdrawals, we should be careful to ensure that regulations allow an investment that is suited to such regular withdrawals. According to the Financial Secretary's presentation of child trust funds, most of the companies or societies that will design them view them as long-term, 18-year investments with what she called "lifestyling" towards the end of the term. If new clause 2 is added to the Bill, different criteria will be required for disabled children. We must ensure that a child trust fund has, as far as we can determine it, potential for reasonable growth in the short-term, which obviously depends on many other factors, but can also be dipped in to, as the hon. Member for Witney put it, from time to time. It is to be hoped that dipping would not occur regularly, but it must be possible. I would hate trust funds to be set up for disabled children that lock in

3 Feb 2004 : Column 659

the money for 18 years to get reasonable returns but prevent the very objective that the hon. Gentleman seeks to achieve.

I am inclined to support new clause 1, but I say to the Financial Secretary that we must carefully examine the regulations to allow a different type of child trust fund for disabled children. New clause 1 states that the Inland Revenue and the account provider must be informed that the section would apply to them, but perhaps we should go further and ensure that before advice is given on the type of trust fund the objective of the fund is made clear and an appropriate vehicle is available.

Mr. George Osborne (Tatton) (Con): I have little to add to what my hon. Friend the Member for Witney said so eloquently about new clause 1 and amendment No. 16, which appear in my name and those of my right hon. and hon. Friends but are wholly inspired by him. Indeed, readers of his weekly internet column in The Guardian will know that he hopes that the provision will be called "Cameron's law" when it is enacted. That would imitate what happens in the United States Congress, where significant legislation is named after the legislators who introduced it. We are not quite there yet, but I hope that my remarks will help him.

My hon. Friend reminds us that some hon. Members have a direct interest in the Bill. Like him, the Financial Secretary and I have children under one year old who will benefit from child trust funds. He speaks from personal experience of the emotional and financial strain on families with severely disabled children. He is a personal friend as well as an hon. Friend of mine, and I can attest to the fact that he and his wife Sam are extremely loving and caring parents for their son, Ivan. They have been put under enormous pressure and strain and they have coped with it admirably. He is a personal testament to the unsung heroes in many families who deal with very disabled children.

My hon. Friend reminded us of Mencap's "Breaking Point" campaign, which was very effective. It found that eight out of 10 parents with disabled children are close to breaking point. Indeed, today, in Committee and on Second Reading he has pointed to the gaps in society's provision of respite care—I suppose that I should use the term "short breaks" instead—equipment and support for parents with disabled children, and to the challenges facing severely disabled children who try to lead an independent life once they reach 18.

2.30 pm

My hon. Friend's amendments seek to help. They would, as he says, allow families to build up a pot of money to help children achieve as independent a life as possible, and to provide a home for the money given by charities, relatives and other family members. They would also allow for early withdrawal, to enable the provision of specialist equipment and of care in special circumstances. We had several debates in Committee on whether early withdrawal from the child trust fund should be allowed in general terms. Here, of course, he is talking about a specific case and about specific needs that the child trust fund could meet.

I shall anticipate some of the objections that might be raised, the first of which is that such a provision could be open to abuse: that it could be used as some form of tax

3 Feb 2004 : Column 660

avoidance scheme. Frankly, that is a highly unlikely, fairly low-risk possibility. In any case, there are limited tax advantages to child trust funds. There are many other tax loopholes that the Inland Revenue could spend its time investigating. I cannot see that such a provision would be widely abused.

The second objection that might be levelled is that parents would withdraw the money and spend it on themselves: that they would abuse the rights that we would be giving them. Again, that is highly unlikely. We are talking about parents who have taken it upon themselves to look after their children, rather than throwing in the towel and saying that they cannot cope. Moreover, they are the kind of parents who will have built up a significant child trust fund, so they are unlikely to abuse it at a later point. However, we would be willing to look at restrictions that the Minister might want to place on the number of early withdrawals, or on the proportion of the fund that could be withdrawn at a particular time. Indeed, as my hon. Friend said, we could consider protection of the initial Government contribution, so that it could not be withdrawn early.

The third objection that might be raised is that it would be difficult to police how the money is being used, even if it is being spent on the child. My hon. Friend's new clause sets out some of the uses to which that money could be put, but if the Minister feels that such a provision would be impossible to police I suggest that she simply trust that the parents would make good use of the money in such circumstances. In the light of that and of the restrictions to which I have referred, perhaps that would constitute a sufficient safeguard.

I remind the House that my hon. Friend received generous support from other Members when we discussed this issue in Committee, including from the hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Laws), who spoke for the Liberal Democrats, and from the hon. Member for Angus (Mr. Weir), who has just spoken eloquently in support of what my hon. Friend seeks to achieve. Indeed, my hon. Friend also enjoyed the support of the hon. Member for Lancaster and Wyre (Mr. Dawson). He was the most vocal Labour Member in Committee—two contributed regularly; all the others were silent—and he made a number of good contributions, including in respect of these new clauses and amendments. He said that my hon. Friend's

"proposal fits with the future model of social care that the Government want: it fits with a model in which more users of services are given the ability to determine their own services through direct payments."

He continued:

"There was some agitation on the Labour Benches because Members were genuinely taken by the strength of the hon. Gentleman's argument and the good idea that he has expressed. I hope that the Minister will be able to respond positively to the suggestion that has been made."

Of course, the Minister did just that, and my hon. Friend and I were slightly taken aback by the enthusiastic support that she offered. We had always been led to believe that one achieves absolutely zero in Committee when in opposition, so we were absolutely delighted when she said that she found his amendments

"forceful, interesting and creative. He highlights an opportunity that could be provided by the child trust fund and employs the sort of creativity that I would like to see applied to the fund as it develops over the coming years."

3 Feb 2004 : Column 661

She was

"struck by the force of his arguments",

and said:

"I would like to go away and consider the proposal, and to see whether we could work up a scheme to deal with such a category of person. I am advised that we could do that through regulation . . . if it is possible . . . I would introduce a further regulation, perhaps a few weeks later, to deal with the issue."—[Official Report, Standing Committee A, 15 January 2004; c. 167–172.]

So the Minister was quite specific, and I know that, privately, she is very sympathetic to my hon. Friend's suggestion. Indeed, she has gone to considerable lengths to look at the technicalities and practicalities involved. I suspect that some of her officials in the Inland Revenue are presenting her with all manner of practical problems and objections. I urge her to override them, to exercise her ministerial discretion and to get the job done.

New clause 2 deals with the tragic cases of children with terminal illnesses. It would allow the parents—the shorthand term for a "responsible person", which is the phrase used throughout the Bill—of a terminally ill child to withdraw anything up to the full amount from the child trust fund. In such circumstances, parents would require a certificate from a consultant, attesting that the child had a terminal illness. That consultant would have to be practising in the NHS, and be

"qualified by speciality to make a professional diagnosis and prognosis regarding the child's illness".

My attempted definition of terminal illness—arriving at it was not a particularly pleasant way to spend yesterday afternoon—is:

"an illness which, in the opinion of the consulting physician, is inevitably progressive, the effects of which cannot be reversed by treatment (although treatment may be successful in relieving symptoms temporarily) and which will be likely to result in the child's death before his eighteenth birthday."

The purpose of the new clause will be obvious to the House. The funds in the child trust fund of a terminally ill child could be used to bring a little happiness and relief in a desperate situation. They could be used, for example, to pay for a special holiday or treat, or for palliative treatment or special care if, for some reason, the NHS was not providing it. Everyone will doubtless agree that it would be a cruel situation if a family who could not afford such things, except through the money in the child trust fund, could access that money only on the death of the child. There would rightly be great public concern at such a situation, and one can imagine cases grabbing the public's attention in a fairly lurid way. That would undermine much of the good in the child trust fund proposal.

The Government did look at this issue, but according to the White Paper they decided that they could not tackle it—for what I would regard as fairly bureaucratic reasons. The White Paper states:

"Where a child develops a terminal illness, parents may want access to CTF funds"—

child trust fund funds—

"to pay for medical treatment or a special holiday. Although entirely understandable, particularly where parents have made contributions to the fund, the Government is concerned that this would be very difficult to administer fairly and with sensitivity.

3 Feb 2004 : Column 662

It is also possible that some people would make fraudulent claims to access the money in the CTF account.


In view of the difficulties and risks involved, the Government does not intend to allow access to CTF accounts in these circumstances."

I suggest to the Minister that the prospect of fraud is extremely limited, not least because, if she adopted something like the safeguards set out in my new clause, a certificate from a consulting physician would be required, which would also help to provide sensitive and fair administration of the system. The alternative to the occasional case of fraud is far worse: a dying child who is deprived of the use of their money because of some pedantic concern.

In Committee, the Minister was pretty positive on this issue; indeed, she was pretty positive about virtually everything that we said in Committee. She said that she was

"struck by the arguments about terminal illness, which the Committee has already debated, and I shall consider whether parents of terminally ill children should have . . . access to the fund."—[Official Report, Standing Committee A, 15 January 2004; c. 172.]

I know that she is sympathetic, but I would be grateful for further assurance that she is prepared to move forward on the issue and perhaps introduce regulations this year. We want to avoid the parents of a dying child being unable to access the pot of money or spend it to good purpose while the child is alive, and having to wait for the child to die before they can access the funds.

---