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Mr. Raynsford indicated dissent.
Mr. Pickles: It is true. The Audit Commission says that burdens from central Government increased local authorities' costs and that changes in the allocation of funding hit many councils hard. It dismisses the Government's claim that the high rises last year were because the councils were not up for re-election.
The level of council tax has reached a high that even this Government find unacceptable. Council tax has been used for a purpose that it was never intended for. It has distorted the whole system of local government. Rather than scrabble around for a new form of taxation, the Government should remove the distortion. They must stop using council tax as a stealth tax to bring in public expenditure by the back door.
I shall conclude with some apposite words from the Minister. On the subject of capping, he said, in this very Chamber:
- "We see a sad and sorry picture of the imposition of centralised diktats by Ministers who cannot possibly understand the intricacies and detailed implications for local communities".—[Official Report, 24 June 1992; Vol. 210, c. 346.]
5.54 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Office of the Deputy Prime Minister (Phil Hope): We have held a short, intense but important debate on the financial settlement for local government next year. Many Members have had the chance to intervene on my right hon. Friend the Minister for Local Government, Regional Governance and Fire, and many of them spoke in support of their local area. However, I noticed that no one asked for less money to be given to their council.
Many Members asked for unreasonable council tax increases to be capped, or to be dealt with. I have looked back at some of the debates when the Conservatives were in power; the Tory Government, who deliberately failed to recognise the problems of deprivation, boasted that tax increases under Tory councils were the lowest. Today, it appears that, on average, Tory councils, with the Liberal Democrats close behind, are planning to set higher council tax rates than Labour councils. Of course, they will try to pin the blame on the Government, but local people know better. They know that every council has received consistent, above-inflation support for its services every year since 1997. They know that Tory councils are to blame for high council taxes.
The right hon. Member for Skipton and Ripon (Mr. Curry) was ambivalent about capping when he responded to an intervention from my hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Bennett); he refused to say whether he would cap councils in future.
Given the right hon. Gentleman's record in government, that is strange, as he was one of the most ruthless, across-the-board, capping Ministers this country has ever seen. He knows that Tory councils cost us more, and that if ever they got back into government a Tory Government would cost us more.What emerged from the right hon. Gentleman's contribution was the way the Tories would find the savings to stop those rises. We heard it: cuts to public services. That is the answer that the Tories came up with. Basically, the right hon. Gentleman said that public sector pay was too high, so all our public sector workers in local government know that their pay would be cut if the Tories ever came back to power.
Mr. Curry: The hon. Gentleman disfigures entirely what I said. I said that public sector pay was rising at 5 per cent., and when I was asked whether I wanted to cut it, I said "no" and that the Government had to finance it because it was a cost on local government. That is what I said.
Phil Hope: Those of us with a history of representing workers in the trade union movement all know what it means when we hear a Tory Minister talking about public sector pay going too high.
The hon. Member for Totnes (Mr. Steen), who is no longer in the Chamber, did not actually focus on public sector pay, but on public sector jobs. He said that the only way to reduce the cost of local government is to reduce the number of public sector workers in local government. Not only will the Tories cut their pay; they will also cut public sector jobs. Of course, the hon. Gentleman is only backing up his leader, who believes in small government. And what does that pledge mean in practice? A 20 per cent. cut in public sector spending across the board. That would be the impact of a Tory Government in charge of local government.
Phil Hope: From the hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey), we discovered that the Liberals are opposed to important new developments, such as local strategic partnerships, which do much locally to bring local agencies together and improve public services. It appears, however, that the Liberal Democrats will scrap those partnerships, along with other interventions we have made, such as the comprehensive performance assessment, which are driving up standards in local government. As a result of inspections and the support, such as the CPA, that local government enjoys, councils' performance improves year on year. The hon. Gentleman should tell his Liberal Democrat friends in local government, who are often the greatest enthusiasts—
Mr. Streeter: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. As you know, I have been unable to put the
point that I came into the Chamber to make, and as you also know, no Conservative Back Bencher has been able to speak—
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): Order. I think that the hon. Gentleman, probably from understandable frustration, is distorting what a point of order should be. I cannot accept that.
Phil Hope: The hon. Member for South-West Devon (Mr. Streeter) intervened twice during the speech of my right hon. Friend the Minister and made his points then.
It appears that the Liberal Democrats are opposed to passporting, too—as, it seems, is the right hon. Member for Skipton and Ripon, who is opposed to the passporting of money for education. That is interesting in view of the comments about Cambridgeshire made in February 1997 by the right hon. Member for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer), who was then in government. He said that the Conservatives had concentrated on education because
- "the majority of people feel that it should be a priority . . . If a local authority does not passport through the money, as is provided for, it will be for the electorate to ask it whether it shares their priorities".—[Official Report, 3 February 1997; Vol. 289, c. 678.]
Let us contrast the Tory record with that of a Labour Government who believe in helping communities to help themselves. At the centre of that belief is our commitment to support local authorities in doing the job that local people rightly expect them to do.
It being four hours after the commencement of proceedings on the police grant report motion, Mr. Deputy Speaker put the Question forthwith, pursuant to Order [2 February].
The House divided: Ayes 244, Noes 160.
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)
Alexander, Douglas
Allen, Graham
Anderson, rh Donald (Swansea E)
Anderson, Janet (Rossendale & Darwen)
Austin, John
Bailey, Adrian
Baird, Vera
Banks, Tony
Barnes, Harry
Barron, rh Kevin
Battle, John
Beard, Nigel
Begg, Miss Anne
Bennett, Andrew
Benton, Joe (Bootle)
Berry, Roger
Betts, Clive
Blears, Ms Hazel
Blizzard, Bob
Blunkett, rh David
Boateng, rh Paul
Borrow, David
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)
Bradshaw, Ben
Brown, rh Nicholas (Newcastle E Wallsend)
Brown, Russell (Dumfries)
Browne, Desmond
Burnham, Andy
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Casale, Roger
Caton, Martin
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)
Clark, Paul (Gillingham)
Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & Chryston)
Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)
Clwyd, Ann (Cynon V)
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ms Ann
Cohen, Harry
Colman, Tony
Cook, Frank (Stockton N)
Cook, rh Robin (Livingston)
Cooper, Yvette
Cox, Tom (Tooting)
Crausby, David
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, Ann (Keighley)
Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
David, Wayne
Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Dean, Mrs Janet
Denham, rh John
Dhanda, Parmjit
Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)
Doran, Frank
Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)
Drew, David (Stroud)
Drown, Ms Julia
Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
Edwards, Huw
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Farrelly, Paul
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flint, Caroline
Flynn, Paul (Newport W)
Follett, Barbara
Foster, rh Derek
Foster, Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye)
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Gapes, Mike (Ilford S)
Gardiner, Barry
George, rh Bruce (Walsall S)
Gerrard, Neil
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Gilroy, Linda
Godsiff, Roger
Goggins, Paul
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)
Grogan, John
Hall, Patrick (Bedford)
Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)
Havard, Dai (Merthyr Tydfil & Rhymney)
Healey, John
Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Hendrick, Mark
Heppell, John
Heyes, David
Hill, Keith (Streatham)
Hodge, Margaret
Hope, Phil (Corby)
Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)
Howarth, George (Knowsley N & Sefton E)
Howells, Dr. Kim
Hoyle, Lindsay
Hughes, Beverley (Stretford & Urmston)
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Humble, Mrs Joan
Hurst, Alan (Braintree)
Hutton, rh John
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Eric
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate)
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Jamieson, David
Jenkins, Brian
Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)
Jones, Kevan (N Durham)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)
Jowell, rh Tessa
Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)
Kaufman, rh Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keen, Alan (Feltham)
Keen, Ann (Brentford)
Kemp, Fraser
Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)
Khabra, Piara S.
Kidney, David
King, Andy (Rugby)
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lammy, David
Laxton, Bob (Derby N)
Lepper, David
Linton, Martin
Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)
Love, Andrew
Lucas, Ian (Wrexham)
Luke, Iain (Dundee E)
McAvoy, Thomas
McCabe, Stephen
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonnell, John
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McKenna, Rosemary
Mackinlay, Andrew
McNamara, Kevin
McNulty, Tony
Mactaggart, Fiona
McWalter, Tony
Mahmood, Khalid
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Mandelson, rh Peter
Mann, John (Bassetlaw)
Marris, Rob (Wolverh'ton SW)
Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)
Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)
Meale, Alan (Mansfield)
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)
Mole, Chris
Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
Norris, Dan (Wansdyke)
O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)
O'Hara, Edward
Olner, Bill
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Perham, Linda
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter (Burnley)
Pond, Chris (Gravesham)
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Prescott, rh John
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Ken
Purnell, James
Quin, rh Joyce
Quinn, Lawrie
Rammell, Bill
Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N)
Raynsford, rh Nick
Reed, Andy (Loughborough)
Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW)
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Rooney, Terry
Roy, Frank (Motherwell)
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Ryan, Joan (Enfield N)
Salter, Martin
Savidge, Malcolm
Sawford, Phil
Sedgemore, Brian
Sheridan, Jim
Short, rh Clare
Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, Angela (Basildon)
Smith, rh Chris (Islington S & Finsbury)
Smith, Geraldine (Morecambe & Lunesdale)
Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)
Smith, John (Glamorgan)
Soley, Clive
Spellar, rh John
Squire, Rachel
Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Stinchcombe, Paul
Stoate, Dr. Howard
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Tami, Mark (Alyn)
Taylor, David (NW Leics)
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mark (S Derbyshire)
Touhig, Don (Islwyn)
Truswell, Paul
Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Turner, Dr. Desmond (Brighton Kemptown)
Turner, Neil (Wigan)
Vaz, Keith (Leicester E)
Vis, Dr. Rudi
Ward, Claire
Wareing, Robert N.
Watson, Tom (W Bromwich E)
White, Brian
Wicks, Malcolm
Wilson, Brian
Winnick, David
Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
Woolas, Phil
Worthington, Tony
Wright, Anthony D. (Gt Yarmouth)
Wright, David (Telford)
Wright, Tony (Cannock)
Wyatt, Derek
Tellers for the Ayes:
Mr. Nick Ainger and
Charlotte Atkins
NOES
Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Amess, David
Arbuthnot, rh James
Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Bacon, Richard
Baldry, Tony
Baron, John (Billericay)
Barrett, John
Bellingham, Henry
Beresford, Sir Paul
Blunt, Crispin
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)
Brady, Graham
Brake, Tom (Carshalton)
Brazier, Julian
Brooke, Mrs Annette L.
Browning, Mrs Angela
Bruce, Malcolm
Burnett, John
Burstow, Paul
Butterfill, Sir John
Cable, Dr. Vincent
Calton, Mrs Patsy
Cameron, David
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies (NE Fife)
Carmichael, Alistair
Cash, William
Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)
Chidgey, David
Chope, Christopher
Clappison, James
Clarke, rh Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Collins, Tim
Conway, Derek
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Cran, James (Beverley)
Curry, rh David
Davey, Edward (Kingston)
Davies, Quentin (Grantham & Stamford)
Davis, rh David (Haltemprice & Howden)
Djanogly, Jonathan
Doughty, Sue
Duncan, Alan (Rutland)
Duncan Smith, rh Iain
Evans, Nigel
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Michael
Flight, Howard
Flook, Adrian
Forth, rh Eric
Foster, Don (Bath)
Francois, Mark
Gale, Roger (N Thanet)
Garnier, Edward
Gidley, Sandra
Gillan, Mrs Cheryl
Goodman, Paul
Gray, James (N Wilts)
Grayling, Chris
Green, Damian (Ashford)
Green, Matthew (Ludlow)
Grieve, Dominic
Gummer, rh John
Hammond, Philip
Hancock, Mike
Harris, Dr. Evan (Oxford W & Abingdon)
Hawkins, Nick
Hayes, John (S Holland)
Heald, Oliver
Heath, David
Hoban, Mark (Fareham)
Horam, John (Orpington)
Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)
Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)
Jack, rh Michael
Jenkin, Bernard
Johnson, Boris (Henley)
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Keetch, Paul
Kennedy, rh Charles (Ross Skye & Inverness)
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lamb, Norman
Leigh, Edward
Liddell-Grainger, Ian
Lidington, David
Lilley, rh Peter
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter (M-Worcs)
McIntosh, Miss Anne
Mackay, rh Andrew
Maclean, rh David
McLoughlin, Patrick
Malins, Humfrey
Maples, John
Maude, rh Francis
Mawhinney, rh Sir Brian
May, Mrs Theresa
Mercer, Patrick
Moore, Michael
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Norman, Archie
O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)
Öpik, Lembit
Osborne, George (Tatton)
Ottaway, Richard
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Paterson, Owen
Pickles, Eric
Price, Adam (E Carmarthen & Dinefwr)
Prisk, Mark (Hertford)
Pugh, Dr. John
Randall, John
Redwood, rh John
Reid, Alan (Argyll & Bute)
Rendel, David
Robathan, Andrew
Robertson, Hugh (Faversham & M-Kent)
Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)
Roe, Mrs Marion
Rosindell, Andrew
Ruffley, David
Russell, Bob (Colchester)
Sanders, Adrian
Sayeed, Jonathan
Selous, Andrew
Shephard, rh Mrs Gillian
Shepherd, Richard
Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns & Kincardine)
Spelman, Mrs Caroline
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spink, Bob (Castle Point)
Spring, Richard
Steen, Anthony
Streeter, Gary
Swayne, Desmond
Syms, Robert
Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Taylor, Dr. Richard (Wyre F)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Teather, Sarah
Tredinnick, David
Trend, Michael
Tyler, Paul (N Cornwall)
Tyrie, Andrew
Viggers, Peter
Walter, Robert
Waterson, Nigel
Watkinson, Angela
Whittingdale, John
Wiggin, Bill
Wilkinson, John
Willetts, David
Williams, Roger (Brecon)
Wilshire, David
Younger-Ross, Richard
Tellers for the Noes:
Mr. Mark Field and
Gregory Barker
Question accordingly agreed to.
- That the Local Government Finance Report (England) 2004–05, HC 276, a copy of which was laid before this House on 29th January, be approved.
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