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Mr. Edwards: I am grateful for the advice that my hon. Friend the Minister has given to me and my hon. Friend the Member for Kingswood on taking up the matter with Ministers at the Department for Work and Pensions, which we most certainly will, but, significantly, the one thing that he forgot to mention—perhaps he is not aware of this—is that there is an element for carers in pension credit. One of the problems with pension credit, however, is that a lot of people do not realise that they are eligible for it. If they do not realise that they are eligible, many carers might not realise that they are eligible for the carer's element as well. Would it not be more helpful to have a better package overall to meet the financial needs of carers over 65, rather than the hotch-potch of different benefits, which many people are not aware of?
Dr. Ladyman: It is not that I am not aware of this matter, but that I was coming to it. I was about to point out the fact that those benefits are available and to link that to the Bill because, once again, we are dealing with
one of the reasons why we need to improve the information flows to carers, whatever age they are—there is a panoply of benefits. My hon. Friend can argue that they are too complex and he can take that argument up with the Department for Work and Pensions, but, from our point of view and from the point of view of today's debate, I would argue that this matter highlights one of the reasons why we need to consider some principles that are behind the Bill introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon. That will enable us to ensure that we are providing such information to people so that they can make a claim for those benefits to which they are entitled.I suspect, for example, that if we were to do a survey of all our constituents and work out how many of them are entitled to attendance allowance but are not claiming it, we would probably be surprised by the number. The Department for Work and Pensions works had to try to encourage people to apply for attendance allowance, and in these areas my hon. Friend's Bill will be important in getting the message out.
Mr. Burstow: The Minister's hon. Friends have been, as he put it, getting at him slightly on the point about benefits. Will he reflect, perhaps after the debate, on the fact that one of his arguments for not doing anything on invalid care allowance for over-65s is, "Things have always been done this way."? Until quite recently, the Government were deploying that argument in respect of hospital downrating. Perhaps it is time for the same damascene conversion as has happened on hospital downrating, which would allow the over-65s to benefit from a worthwhile benefit such as carer's allowance.
Dr. Ladyman: My hon. Friends are not getting at me. They are championing those people who have support needs. That is what they always do, and I am delighted that they do it. The Government do not undergo damascene conversions either. It is just that we recognise that we cannot fix the entire world in a day, or even a year, so we eat the elephant a mouthful at a time. Hospital downrating is one of the issues that we came to as soon as we could. Each of the measures that we are discussing today—I have no doubt—will be reviewed in due course and improved as finances and opportunity become available.
For the information of the House, the number of people receiving carer's allowance has risen from 367,000 to 408,000 over the last five years, which is an 11 per cent. increase. That includes 20,000 pensioners. Expenditure has improved significantly as well, so the message is starting to get out there and people are starting to take up carer's allowance, but perhaps not at the rate we would like them to. We will continue to work on that.
The hon. Member for Caernarfon, who is a former social worker, also raised attendance allowance and the lack of information. I have agreed that he was right to do so. My hon. Friend the Member for Reading, East (Jane Griffiths) spoke movingly of her constituents. The notion that someone can be told on giving birth to a child effectively to put her away and have other children horrifies us these days, but that was the attitude many
years ago. We have to move away from that attitude as dramatically and quickly as possible. She was right to highlight that experience.The hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam mentioned home care, and he acknowledges that home care hours have increased, although I have recurrent discussions with him over the significance of targeting home care on fewer households. I continue to take the view that it is right to target it on the households where it can do most good. As a result of that approach, we have seen a 30 per cent. increase in the number of people receiving intensive home care and therefore being able to remain in their own homes and cared for by individuals there, rather than having to go into residential or nursing care. The facts speak for themselves, and show that that policy is working.
The hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam also suggested that carers assessments might discount the level of care provided to the cared-for person because of the presence of a carer. That is bound to happen, because the presence of a carer is taken into account when undertaking the assessment, but one purpose of the Bill is to ensure that while we take the carer's presence into account, we also take into account their needs. The presence of the carer should not cause a discount to the extent that the carer loses their own life, and cannot go out to work or to study. My hon. Friend's Bill introduces that important principle.
The hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam was right to raise certain concerns over clause 1(1), and we shall return to that in Committee because the provision needs to be properly focused.
My hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Mr. David) mentioned a case study involving a carer who returned to study, and then saw herself as being worth something. What struck me about that story was not the fact that care had to be organised to enable that carer to return to study; it worried me that she did not think that she was worth anything until she was studying. We must get over to the people who provide care how much we appreciate them and how much they are worth to us and to the person for whom they care, as well as help them to expand their lives, for example, by returning to study.
I am delighted that the hon. Member for Wycombe (Mr. Goodman) committed the official Opposition to supporting the Bill, at least in principle. We will need to work together to improve it, and I shall say a little more about that in a moment. My hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon, the Committee and the Government will need the help of the official Opposition to ensure that what emerges from Committee is a Bill that we can all support.
The hon. Member for Wycombe mentioned the Scottish experience in respect of clause 3. My information is that Scotland will tell us that the provision will not lead to a huge increase in costs to councils. That will provide reassurance as we move forward with the Bill.
My hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (Mr. Edwards) reminded us that none of us knows what is round the corner. Like him, I am afraid that I have never had a private Member's Bill. Before I became a Minister, I put my name in the hat every year but never saw it appear at any position on the league table, let
alone one that would allow me to have a debate. I know that my hon. Friend will work closely with us on this Bill, so he will be able to make a contribution.I should like to take up the point that my hon. Friend made about none of us knowing what is around the corner, and to encourage all hon. Members to consider what would happen to one of us if we were forced into a caring role at short notice. How would we reorganise our lives? I am very fortunate never to have been in that position. It is difficult enough to combine ordinary child care with professional duties. My little girl spends half her life sitting quietly at the back of meetings while I try to combine my official duties with some child care. But it must cause a devastating change in a person's life suddenly to find that they have intensive care duties placed upon them out of the blue.
Mr. Edwards: On the comments that the Minister made about my contribution, I am well aware that he does not have responsibility for my constituency or for Wales. What discussions has he had recently with Jane Hutt or other Ministers in the Assembly about this Bill and other legislation relating to carers? If he has had none recently, what discussions does he intend to have in the future?
Dr. Ladyman: I can assure my hon. Friend that my officials are in close contact with officials from the Wales Office, and that I am in communication with Jane Hutt about the Bill. I am aware of her support for it and that of the leadership of the Welsh Assembly, and we shall work hard with them to ensure that the changes that we make to the Bill in Committee will not compromise that support. There is a strong Welsh flavour to the Bill, from my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon and other hon. Members all round the Chamber, and it would be disastrous to end up with a Bill that was good for England but had no benefits for Wales. We shall work hard to ensure that that does not happen.
My hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Mr. Caton) drew on his experience as a constituency MP to highlight the fact that there are carers in every household, and that many of them are frail and have severe care needs of their own.
We have established that support for carers must revolve not only around the needs of the person being cared for but around the carer's own needs. That support must ensure that they are able to make choices as individuals. It is also important to ensure that those who want to care are able to do so. It is equally important to make it possible for those who wish to do so, to combine normal everyday activities such as work and hobbies with caring. Providing care for those we love should be a choice rather than a chore. Thus far, we are all on common ground. I have no doubt that a desire to achieve these objectives is shared by us all.
However, before we get carried away with good intentions, I now have to put my ministerial hat on and become a bit of a party pooper. There are four things that we, as legislators, must take into account. First, any new legislation must fit within the framework of the modernisation of public services. We cannot say to councils that they must plan their services based on what they and local people believe they need, and then tell them what to do and how to do it. Councils cannot be
micro-managed from Whitehall either by Ministers or by well-intentioned private Member's Bills. We have to ensure that councils have a general duty to care for carers, but then allow them to fulfil that duty in ways that best meet local priorities.Secondly, new legislation must complement existing laws in terms of substance and approach. Poor practice is unacceptable, but let us not forget that legislation is about changing the law, not about repeating it. Improving practice in the field relies on other mechanisms, such as inspections and the performance assessment frameworks. Thirdly, any new legislation should be able to deliver real and concrete change without placing disproportionate burdens on local councils.
Fourthly, the change that we bring about must be worth while, deliver real improvements and build on the existing legislative foundations. Thanks to earlier work and support by Members of this House and the other place, I am glad to say that those foundations are strong. The Carers and Disabled Children Act 2000—which was itself a private Member's Bill, introduced by my noble and very good Friend, Lord Pendry of Stalybridge, when he sat in this House—has developed carers support beyond that established by the Carers (Recognition and Services) Act 1995. It took the key step of recognising carers as separate individuals with sometimes quite different needs from those of the person for whom they care.
By enabling carers to request an assessment of their own needs and enabling councils to support carers through services, direct payments and vouchers, the Act gave carers the ability they now have to make real choices about their lives. That flexibility is fundamental in enabling them to pursue their own lives and interests as well as caring.
Of course, having established the general statutory framework within which councils must meet the needs of carers, and having devolved to them the responsibility to meet those needs in ways that best suit individual and local circumstances, we have a duty to assess how well they are fulfilling those duties. We do that through the performance assessment system. Some Members may know that my Department is currently developing a measure to assess the value and impact on carers of the support provided at local level. That will make it clear to councils what their key priorities should be, and enable Government to see where carers are being well served and where they are not.
Given the statutory framework we have, and given what we can do through performance assessment to ensure that the needs of carers are met, we must now ask whether we need any more laws in this area. We know that caring can affect both the health and the financial status of carers and their families. Access to employment opportunities both helps to maintain self-confidence and prevent people from falling out of the labour market. The Government are committed to enabling carers who wish to work to do so, as well as encouraging employers to develop carer-friendly employment policies and encouraging councils to provide more flexible support services that take account of carers who work.
My hon. Friend's Bill seeks to address some of those vital concerns for carers and the wider economic environment, but—this is where I shall start to worry
him—I am not convinced that, as it stands, it meets my four tests. While the Government agree with the general intention that carers be supported to ensure their own health and well-being through assessment and access to better information, we feel that the provisions as currently drafted would not necessarily deliver that outcome. Parts of the Bill duplicate existing legislation, and it is difficult to see exactly what others will actually mean for councils or carers. For example—this was raised by the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam—the scope of clause 1(1) seems to me uncertain, and the clause does not make clear what social services would be required to do if charged with that duty.
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