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Mr. Goodman: Given the reservations that the Minister is expressing, do the Government intend to improve the Bill in Committee with a view to its enactment?
Dr. Ladyman: Yes. I shall encourage the House to give the Bill a Second Reading so that we shall be able to do that very thing. Whether it is given a Third Reading will depend entirely on whether we are successful in Committee—although I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon is committed to working with us to make appropriate changes so that we can support it. I have no doubt that he will confirm that if he is given an opportunity to speak again today.
The scope of the regulation-making power in clause 1(3) is particularly unclear. We recognise that it is a legitimate aspiration that councils should change their attitudes to carers, but as the Bill stands, it is unclear what that would mean to social services departments in practice. If we are to pass the Bill, we shall need to ensure that it is focused and clear in its application and tailored to the exercise of social service functions.
Perhaps of more concern to us is the fact that some components of the Bill go against everything that the Government believe in, in terms of local autonomy and decision making. It is crucial for councils to be able to make strategic decisions about what best suits their populations and employees. They must be able to respond to individual needs.
We should not and must not be too prescriptive. If the Bill were to continue in its present form, clause 2 would mean central Government dictating to councils the form and content of their community plans. This is not how we envisage modernisation of the health and social care systems. Local authorities already have a duty to participate in the preparation of a plan. We are therefore considering whether we can ensure health bodies' participation through existing powers in section 28 of the Health Act 1999, in order to deliver the best outcome for carers. It may be possible to come up with an alternative but effective way to meet my hon. Friend's objectives. We will doubtless discuss such possibilities if the Bill proceeds to Standing Committee.
It is important to remember that councils already have considerable responsibilities in law to support carers, and we must not lose sight of the role of work force training and best practice. More legislation will not necessarily change people's behaviour. Guidance and training in best practice is undoubtedly one of the
most effective ways to ensure that those involved are aware of their responsibilities. A good example is the guidance issued with the Carers and Disabled Children Act 2000, which gave a very clear message: carers assessments should include the impact of caring on their working lives. For many carers, this is the key to addressing their support needs. No assumption should be made that people will give up work to care. I shall repeat that message, because many councils throughout the country need to hear it: no assumption should be made that people will give up work to care. We are also exploring the use of existing powers relating to the conduct of carers assessments in a way that will complement existing guidance and further support carers.Carers must be offered as a priority the possibility of continuing to work, in order to maintain their confidence and well-being. This is particularly true when they are unexpectedly thrust into the role of caring by events outside their control. That happens all too often when people are discharged from hospital. There are many examples of good practice guidance to support both the NHS and councils in performing this duty. Clause 5 also gives me cause for concern, as it seeks to separate carers from the population in terms of recognition by the health service. That not only prejudices the generality of the clause, but further separates carers and locks them into their caring role.
But before my hon. Friend gets the idea that I am being too negative about his Bill, let me reassure him that parts of it have the potential to result in real change for carers. One such is clause 3, on the duty to inform. As a Government, we continue to work to ensure that everyone gets what he or she is entitled to in terms of rights and benefits. We know that without an assessment, carers are often unaware of the support available to them. It is important to recognise that there is an abundance of best practice information and guidance for people working with carers. This information is produced, often in partnership, by central Government and local government, as well as by the voluntary sector. However, it would seem reasonable for the Bill to ensure that the few who do not routinely inform carers of their rights follow the practice of the majority who do.
Another of the Bill's commendable aims is to ensure that councils are able to work more readily in partnership with their colleagues across local government and in the NHS. We know that some partners in health and social care have not been as engaged with carers' issues as we would like; this provision will give social services a lever with which to influence their priorities. Clause 4 is intended to foster joint working to deliver a more cohesive service for carers, and with some work, it will do just that. It seems a very wide provision, but it is modelled on section 27 of the Children Act 1989.
In summary, the Bill has the potential to make a real difference for carers, and it could be remodelled to deliver that change in a practical way. I want to release that potential, and to work with my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon to that end. I am very hopeful that we will be able to work together, along with others who will join us in Committee, to achieve a positive outcome. As it stands, the Bill gives me some real cause
for concern. I understand the sentiments and intention behind it, which the Government accept and welcome, but—this is a genuine reservation—it needs work.I therefore hope that the House will give my hon. Friend's Bill a Second Reading, and that it will allow him to take it into Committee, where we can do the necessary work and make the amendments that we have identified to ensure that it delivers real changes for carers. If we succeed in that objective, the Government will be delighted to support the Bill without reservation on Third Reading. I can assure my hon. Friend that, if that is the position that we reach, no one will be happier than me.
I congratulate my hon. Friend once again on introducing the Bill. If he receives the leave of the House to speak again, I hope that he will confirm his willingness to work with the Government to make the necessary amendments. If we do that, I can see Sam's Bill becoming Sam's Act and making a real difference to carers' lives.
1.40 pm
Dr. Francis: With the leave of the House, I rise to thank right hon. and hon. Members for their support today, particularly those who have spoken so eloquently and movingly of their experiences. I thank the hon. Member for Wycombe (Mr. Goodman), the official Opposition spokesman, for his warm support. I also
thank the spokesmen for the Liberal Democrats, Plaid Cymru and the Scottish National party. Ulster Unionists have also offered their support. I also thank all those people outside the House for sending their letters and e-mails of support over the past couple of weeks.I have learned a great deal from our debate today, particularly about the broad definition that we all have of cost and benefit in supporting carers. I am delighted that there are so many supporters of Oscar Wilde's definition of the philistine as someone who
- "knows the price of everything and the value of nothing".
I thank the Minister for his response. I can assure him that, as the Bill progresses and we debate the issues further, the result will be that he and the Government will be able to support the Bill on Third Reading. Everyone outside the House, particularly carers and carers' organisations, will be delighted with that outcome. We all look forward to the Bill becoming law.
Bill accordingly read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee, pursuant to Standing Order No. 63 (Committal of Bills).
Wild Mammals (Protection) (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
1.42 pm
Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
My Bill would amend the Wild Mammals (Protection) Act 1996, which gave limited protection to wild mammals by way of a list of proscribed actions. However, it explicitly excluded any form of lawful hunting and shooting. Because I care about animal welfare, I believe it is time to create a level playing field for all activities involved in the management of wild animals.
Unlike any Bill on these issues that has come before the House over the past seven years, my Wild Mammals (Protection) (Amendment) Bill is a genuine animal welfare measure and it may also resolve the issue of hunting, which has been a divisive and difficult matter, not least for the Government. There has been considerable conflict and emotion over the issue of hunting with dogs. The Government lost control of the problem to people who, in my judgment, did not care to understand the complicated logical and factual bases behind my opposition to an outright ban.
Still more worrying is the fact that those individuals cannot see that my Bill is a genuine effort to improve animal welfare in the countryside and is not mutually contradictory for those who still believe that an outright ban on hunting should take place. The controversial issues have caused trouble for the likes of the Prime Minister and the Leader of the House, who incorrectly stated in the past that it was the Lords who talked out or voted down previous efforts to secure an outright ban. The issues may be a source of danger for senior Government Members and I hope that the Minister will give me an assurance that he will respectfully assist in what I am attempting to do—to take the emotion out of, and put the logic into, the debate.
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