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Gregory Barker: When the Secretary of State for Transport appeared before the Environmental Audit Committee to discuss the Government's policy on air travel, we were extremely underwhelmed by the complete lack of a clear environmental policy on airport and airline expansion. Perhaps the Minister could enlighten us, and tell us what direct influence he has had on his colleague's transport policy and the future of the airline industry?
Mr. Morley: We are, of course, consulted on issues such as the Government White Paper, strategy on air travel and related developments. It is easy to wrestle with such problems in opposition, but the hon. Gentleman should accept that more people want to travel by air. Plane use and passenger numbers are going up. We cannot ignore that. We must recognise trends in society such as the demand for travel, but we must try to tackle their environmental impact.
Gregory Barker: I am extremely grateful to the Minister for being so generous in giving way. However, he cannot ignore the fact that the real cost of airline travel is falling dramatically. In recent years, the cash cost of air tickets has fallen dramatically, and is set to continue to fall in real terms. The Government, however, are quite unwilling to engage in the argument and simply talk about the generality of people wanting to travel.
Mr. Morley: That argument is under way. However, if I interpret the hon. Gentleman's comments correctly, he seems to be arguing that air travel is getting cheaper, so it should be taxed to make it more expensive. That would not necessarily deal with the issue of emissions and pollution—it may simply mean that people pay more, so there will not be an effect on the environment. We must therefore think carefully about which measures we want to apply. For example, the application of carbon trading to air travel within the EU is being considered as part of the EU debate. The proposal has a great deal of merit and would have
genuine results. We need collective agreement on such issues, in this case in the EU, but in other cases on a global basis.
Mrs. Patsy Calton (Cheadle) (LD): May I return to the Minister's comments about people being more affluent and using their cars more? The implication was that the Government simply recognise trends and follow them, rather than trying to set them. In a recent consultation about post office closures, my constituents said that they do not have more cars or more opportunities to use them. They want to be able to walk to the local post office. Government policy on post office closures does not help the environment or reduce the amount of car traffic. Where is the Government's leadership?
Mr. Morley: With respect, post offices and small shops are closing because the hon. Lady's constituents are driving to out-of-town department stores. Of course, we must try to influence such trends and change them, but we must not make glib statements. Many shops close down because local people, who all want to keep them, do not use them themselves. Changes in patterns of behaviour and individual responsibility are not easy to bring about, and the Government cannot dictate exactly what people should do. The hon. Lady seems to think that Liberal Democrat policy is about whether people can or cannot buy a car, where they can take it and how they can use it. I did not know that there was a Stalinist element in Liberal Democrat policy on the environment. Sadly, however, life is a bit more complicated.
We must introduce a range of measures to convince people to follow a course of action that is beneficial for their communities and society. That may, for example, involve restrictions on access to city centres, such as parking policies and parking charges. A range of measures can be applied, but a balance must be struck. It is not, however, always easy to do.
Mrs. Calton: I thank the Minister for being generous with his time. However, he has changed the terms of the argument. No matter how much he wags his finger at me, in my constituency, which is considered affluent, there are people who do not have access to cars, buses or other forms of public transport. Forty per cent. of the people who replied to our consultation have mobility problems, and in some areas 20 per cent. have no car. What is the position of those excluded members of society who do not have the opportunities that the Minister is talking about?
Mr. Morley: Of course there is a social exclusion problem, which the Government take seriously. Perhaps the hon. Lady would like to have a small wager with me as to whether or not car ownership in her constituency has gone up or down since 1997. I think I know exactly what the trend has been.
Mr. Challen: I should like to return to aviation, as it is an important area. As the last international treaty governing aviation was signed in the 1940s, does my hon. Friend agree that the European Union offers us the best way of trying to make the environmental improvements in aviation that we need? That is one reason—Opposition Members obviously will not accept it—why we should remain fully engaged with the EU.
Does my hon. Friend agree that environmental measures should be built into new EU rules governing our relationship with other countries such as the United States? There is a moratorium on genetically modified food, and we could build in environmental considerations that would have a moratorium effect on air travel if we did not conclude a treaty in the near future.
Mr. Morley: I certainly agree that there is a case for negotiation and discussion to reach an international agreement, both within the EU and globally. My hon. Friend is right—insufficient attention has been paid to the growth of air travel over the past few decades. Times have changed, and we need to address the problem.
I do not think that there is any disagreement in the House about the need to tackle climate change. Our record is strong, given that we have exceeded our Kyoto targets and are pursuing an ambitious goal, as we are committed to reducing CO2 by 60 per cent. by 2050. I am not complacent, but nevertheless we are making progress and have considerable support for our approach. I hope that by leading by example—we are the first EU country to implement the EU carbon-trading scheme and set targets—we can encourage other countries to follow.
Norman Baker: Before the Minister leaves the subject of aviation, what steps are the Government taking to try to ensure that aviation emissions are included in Kyoto targets, as currently they are absent? What will be the impact on aviation sector emissions following the Government's recent announcements on aviation? I think that there will be a big increase.
Mr. Morley: There will be an increase in emissions, and the hon. Gentleman is free to look at our figures. As for Kyoto, ideally, aircraft emissions should have been included from the beginning, but we must be realistic and accept how far and how fast we can go. The hon. Gentleman and his colleagues are well aware of the problems with the Kyoto agreement, including the difficulty of getting Russia to ratify and the fact that the US has walked away. The inclusion of aircraft emissions would not have made that any easier. The best way to deal with the issue, as my hon. Friend the Member for Morley and Rothwell (Mr. Challen) suggested, is to approach it internationally rather than within the Kyoto process. Perhaps we will be able to do that post-Kyoto, but in the meantime, the main thing is to get Kyoto ratified and up and running.
I strongly believe that environmental sustainability issues should be addressed locally, nationally and globally. The local aspect includes buying from individuals, which involves raising awareness by making these arguments. We recognise that we have a role to play as a Government, as do the local authorities and non-governmental organisations with which we co-operate closely in trying to get the message across. We also need to play our role globally, as we have done on climate change. We are fortunate in this country to have a first-class scientific base with a wide range of institutions and people. We have been active and successful in international bodies such as the convention on international trade in endangered species—CITES—and the convention on biological diversity, which I will
attend later this year, and where we will press for further changes, including the extension of protected areas to the marine environment. We have worked with our colleagues in the EU and internationally. We have increased the budget of the Darwin scheme—which was originally set up by the Conservative Government; I give credit where it is due, because it has been extremely successful—from £2 million to £7 million a year.We are making progress on forestry. I am proud of the fact that we were the first G8 Government to make a commitment to procuring timber on our Government estates from legal and sustainable sources. We have set up a point of expertise to advise people about that, and we are working with the forest law enforcement and governance process in Asia, Africa and the EU. We want to agree powers in the EU that will strengthen our power to seize illegal timber. We can, and do, seize timber that is in contravention of CITES regulations, but I want to be able to go further. That must be achieved on an EU-wide basis—we cannot do it unilaterally, because we could not stop timber coming from, say, Rotterdam into this country by rail or through the tunnel. We are actively encouraging that EU-wide approach.
I turn to GM in Wales and Scotland. If the hon. Member for Lewes has a fault, it is that he tends to believe what he reads in the newspapers without any criticism or question. He should be wary about that, because in this case it was inaccurate. We are still discussing GM with the devolved Administrations, with whom we have a friendly and constructive relationship, and we will in due course announce our response to the recommendations of ACRE—the Advisory Committee on Releases to the Environment.
Waste is one of the areas where we have lagged behind other countries, although we have a good record on climate, water quality, air quality, and involvement in sustainability and environmental issues. I am pleased, however, that we are making a great deal of progress on waste. We are hitting our targets on recycling, and many more doorstep collections are being introduced by local authorities. Our strategy—the waste implementation programme—is having a big effect. WRAP—the Waste and Resources Action Programme—has been successful in finding markets for recyclates. I am not complacent, because we need to do more, but I am encouraged by the fact that we have made very good progress, which seems to be accelerating.
The hon. Member for Lewes asked about the ghost ships. The bottom line is that people should have the facts about that situation, and I hope that he will join me in condemning the extreme, alarmist and inaccurate descriptions of "toxic time bombs". The fact is that those ships are no better or worse than any other scrap ships of their age. They remain under an injunction and are stored safely in Hartlepool in the facility run by Able UK. In terms of their future, if there are proper green recycling facilities in this country that are legal and have all the required permits, the best option would be to do the job in this country, not tow them all the way back across the Atlantic. That is self-evident, and most green groups regard it as the best option environmentally.
The situation gives rise to wider issues such as our strategy for ship recycling. As many ships, particularly single-hull tankers, will come on to the market in the
next few years, we need good facilities in this country to avoid exporting our problems to other countries. We are in the process of developing those facilities.
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