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Norman Baker: I agree with the hon. Gentleman that the Treasury could provide some long-term stability so that people had some knowledge of how matters would stand in five or 10 years' time. One current problem is the uncertainty about whether the Treasury is going to chop and change its view on what is desirable.
Paddy Tipping: That is exactly the point. We need to set long-term goals with appropriate fiscal mechanisms so that producers can operate in a market that they understand.
The energy White Paper will have consequences for carbon emissions, as will biofuels. I accept that global warming is taking place, although one can argue about its scale. I want DEFRA to work across Government, and internationally, to compile a report on the consequences of global warming for people in the UK. It is clear that summers here will be drier and winters wetter, and that there will be real consequences for sewers. Storm sewers will overflow as a result of flash floods, and real damage will be caused.
This debate is about the state of the environment. This morning, I was talking to the Minister about private sewers. Most hon. Members will be aware of that issue as a result of their constituency work. We are making important progress, but we must keep one foot on the pedal. I look forward to the Government announcing the future direction of policy in the spring. We should look at how private sewers could be adopted, and at how to fund the work that needs to be done on them.
We also need to look at water. It is a scarce resource, and global warming will cause problems with its provision. I hope that the Government will consider that problem, and devote to it part of a larger report on the consequences of global warming. Flooding is a big issue, and we need to have a discussion about managed coastal retreat.
Important though these issues are, they must not be taken in isolation. If we can deal with issues of the countryside and landscape in a more careful and thoughtful way, we may be able to find some solutions.
The Government have achieved an enormous success with the mid-term review of the common agricultural policy. Only 12 months ago, people said in this Chamber that it would never happen, but the biggest change ever in the CAP has been secured. We should not throw that achievement away lightly.
Shortly, the Government will announce how subsidy support to farmers will be paid in 2005. I hope that we will break with the past on that, in the same way that we have changed the CAP. I know that the Minister and his colleagues will listen to claims for historical payments, but I hope that they will recognise that a hybrid approach based on area payments will have better consequences for the environment. There may be difficulties in terms of management, but I advise my hon. Friend the Minister, firmly, that we should not throw away the gains that CAP reform offers.
The reform of the CAP would allow us, in the longer term, to pay landowners to let their land be flooded. Lots of other possibilities would open up as well, especially when it comes to protecting the environment. Diffuse pollution is a real problem. Farmers will not want me to me say so, but the farming communities are the biggest polluters at present. We must link CAP reform—which deals with how farmers are paid—with how we inspect and regulate the farm sector. It might be possible to adopt a single, whole-farm approach, and in that way bring about changes in behaviour.
In my speech, I have considered various problems and suggested partial solutions. As other hon. Members have noted, to achieve big gains in the environment we must work from the local level to the national level, and from there to the international level. We must recognise that the changes will not happen overnight: these are long-term issues, requiring policies that are sustainable in their own right. As far as possible, policies need the all-party support that will mean that they can be delivered, not in one Parliament but over several decades. As many speakers noted, it will become increasingly vital to take seriously environmental concerns—such as enhancing the environment and improving the landscape—and make them the cornerstone of Government policy in the future.
3.16 pm
Mr. John Randall (Uxbridge) (Con): In my capacity as an Opposition Whip, I confess that I was slightly disappointed with the Liberal Democrat motion for this debate, as I could find nothing in it to disagree with.
The hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker) made a thoughtful introduction. Not long ago, the Minister was present for a very interesting debate in Westminster Hall on climate change. I shall not recycle the speech that I made then, even though the same people tend to take part in these discussions and there is a great temptation to use renewable sources of information.
There is a danger that some hon. Members will be seen to be banging on about this subject continuously, but it is so important that there is sometimes no other way to deal with it. My own interest is biodiversity. Many people wonder whether that is really so important, given all the other things that are going on, but I advise them to think of the miner's canary: if animal species are—almost literally—dropping off their perches, should we not worry about what might happen to us?
There has been an interesting discussion about forests this afternoon. I spent most of my life before I entered the House selling furniture, so I am acutely aware of timber, and of the great joy that wood products give many people. However, I also know how difficult it is for our manufacturers to find timber that comes from sustainable sources. Nearly all British manufacturers want that, but my experience was that they did not always get it, despite the assurances that they were given. The suspicion was that some of the money put aside for replanting in fact ended up in a Swiss bank account.
As many hon. Members know, I have a special interest in the marine environment. I urge the Government again to see what can be done about implementing legislation that will give the marine environment real protection. I have gone through the agonies and ecstasies that a private Member's Bill involves. In my case, the ecstasy came first: the agony followed when my Bill foundered on the rocks of the House of Lords. I am aware of how complicated marine environment legislation is. The marine environment is not like the land and the legal competences seem extremely complex; we do not have the same protection for something that is just as valuable as the terrestrial environment. I hope that the Government, my party and the Liberal Democrats will work together to try to implement such protection—I know that the Minister takes a keen interest in the matter. It is not always easy to raise a priority with a Government who have many other priorities in mind—although I may not agree with many of their priorities and certainly not with the way they carry them out—but environmental matters are important.
I have a particular interest in genetically modified crops. During my first year as a Member, the hon. Members for Lewes and for Nottingham, South (Alan Simpson) and I took the Government to court over genetically modified seeds. I was a bit concerned that I might have to foot the bill. The action was about the process and the Government acknowledged that they might have cut a corner, so things were put right.
The results of the Government's farm-scale evaluations of three genetically modified, herbicide-tolerant crops—spring oilseed rape, beet and maize—were published in January. Each crop had been genetically modified to allow it to withstand a particular broad-spectrum herbicide. The trials examined the effect of growing GM varieties of those crops on the abundance and diversity of wildlife, and compared those effects with what happened in conventionally grown fields of the same crop types. The results for the beet and spring oilseed rape showed significant environmental harm and I believe, with many others, that the Government should thus rule out growing them commercially.
The maize results were better for many types of wildlife than those for conventional maize; there were more weeds and weed seeds in and around the crops and more insects at certain times of the year. However, those results cannot be attributed directly to the way in which the maize was genetically modified; rather, they were a consequence of crop management, as the broad-
spectrum herbicide applied to the GM maize was less effective in reducing weeds than the herbicide regime used on conventional maize.In many of the conventional trials, the herbicide used was atrazine—a chemical that has recently been banned in the European Union, owing to its damaging environmental profile. Given those uncertainties, I hope that the Minister will agree that it would be premature to approve commercial growing of GM maize before the Government have tested the crop's performance by comparison with conventional maize that has not been treated with atrazine. The need for caution is paramount, because the public have not yet been persuaded. If GM technology is to be used, it is vital that the public are behind it, and we are a long way from that.
We have already heard about aviation, and tomorrow there will be a debate in Westminster Hall on the aviation White Paper during which I hope to catch the eye of the Chair, but I want to touch briefly on the subject. Those of us who live near Heathrow already know about air pollution and the effects of aviation on our environment. There is a dichotomy, however, because aviation is part of our local economy. Many Members have alluded to similar problems. We can all talk about what we want to happen, but we do not want it to impinge on our own lives.
The hon. Member for Morley and Rothwell (Mr. Challen) said that he might get into trouble for talking about the possibility of charging higher air fares. My constituency may be a bit more marginal than his, but as I have already said in this place, we have to accept that cheap air travel is not a human right. We might want it, but not at the cost of our environment. I was interested to hear his idea for a travel card; I appreciate the point that he was making.
There are ongoing problems at Heathrow and we need to discuss them. Most of our discussions have been with the Department for Transport, but DEFRA has an important role, too, as it will—I hope—monitor the results of air pollution around Heathrow. If the levels cannot be reduced, the third runway will not go ahead. I am not sure what existing data we can use for comparison to determine whether pollution is going down, nor am I sure how independent the results will be.
I regret to tell the House that as I get older not only do I get grumpier, but also more cynical; I may be unwise to go down this path, but sometimes I think that results are determined by the requirements of certain Departments rather than by the facts—one can get what one wants if one asks the right questions.
I have every sympathy for DEFRA and for some of its excellent personnel because they face problems of interdepartmental conflict. During the course of my private Member's Bill, soundings were taken by various Departments—for example, the Department of Trade and Industry and the Treasury, which of course always rears its head. I understand that, but we must take serious note of the fact that the environment is not a luxury; we must take it very seriously.
My hon. Friend the Member for Meriden (Mrs. Spelman) wisely pointed out the danger that care and concern for the environment can be seen as "middle England"—although perhaps that reflects her constituency, as it is in the middle of England. Many people think that they have greater concerns in their
everyday life than worrying about which products to use and whether they are environmentally friendly and so forth. If that is true in this country, we can understand why certain other countries, with incredible problems, feel that environmental concerns are not for them. However, we cannot take such things lightly.
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