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Mr. Roy Beggs (East Antrim) (UUP): I should begin by declaring a small farming interest. I welcome the Government's decision to allow each of the regions to determine the way forward that is most suitable for them. Does the Secretary of State agree that the growing importance of, and emphasis on, environmentally sensitive farming may nevertheless impose additional costs on farmers? For example, when restrictions are placed on the spreading of slurry, farmers will have to
invest in tanks or stores. Will grant aid be provided to encourage such investment, in addition to the single payment?
Margaret Beckett: The hon. Gentleman makes an important point, and he is right to say that there is increasing emphasis on moving towards more environmentally sensitive farming. That is why we are considering proposals under pillar 2, and the establishment of supporting schemes. As for slurry, grants are available to deal with the impact of changes that farmers will need to make in nitrate-vulnerable
zones. All these issues will be considered over time, but I should point out that such developments are in the long-term interest of farming and of the wider community.We should remember one simple point. Members who are not from farming areas often ask, "Why should farming receive support when other industries do not?" The farming community's answer is simple and straightforward: it is because farmers are the custodians of the land and the landscape, and, as such, of our environment. Indeed, 70 per cent. of our land is farmed land. The farming community is right, and we should recognise that fact. This scheme allows us to make that recognition, and to move away from the previous position.
Sustainable and Secure Buildings Bill [Money]
Queen's recommendation having been signified—
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Office of the Deputy Prime Minister (Phil Hope): I beg to move,
- That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Sustainable and Secure Buildings Bill, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of money provided by Parliament of—
(1) any expenditure incurred by the Secretary of State in consequence or by virtue of the Act; and
(2) any increase attributable to the Act in the sums payable out of money so provided by virtue of any other Act.
The Bill repeals the exemptions from building regulations requirements afforded to statutory undertakers, mainly in respect of utilities and transport undertakings. It also allows building regulations dealing with the conservation of fuel and power, or the reduction of greenhouse gases, to be applied to existing buildings.
The Bill's other main provision is the placing of a requirement on the Secretary of State to present biennially to Parliament a report on progress in the building stock in England and Wales, in connection with conservation of fuel and power, preventing waste or misuse of water, protecting the environment and facilitating sustainable development.
The Bill contains mainly enabling powers, and costs will not arise until those powers are used. Before regulations are made under the Bill, any proposals would be subject to full public consultation and the regulatory impact assessment process in order to look at the costs and benefits—including those that might need to be funded by money provided by Parliament—in respect of central Government and local government. The costs to central Government and local government would be small, and would be funded from existing resource allocations.
Mr. Oliver Heald (North-East Hertfordshire) (Con): On 30 January, when the Minister was discussing this issue at length, he made the Government's case that clauses 2, 5 and 6 should be substantially amended. Of course, that may well happen in Committee, but if it does not and the full cost of the Bill as drafted has to be met, what will it be?
Phil Hope: The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. The Bill will be amended in Committee, and the Government are clear about which of its provisions we
cannot support. The only direct cost in respect of the provisions that we can support is the biennial report to Parliament. We estimate that it will cost £50,000 per report, which includes £5,500 in printing and publishing costs. This sum will be funded from the existing resources of the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister.I want to make it clear to the House that the direct costs to which this money resolution relates—hopefully, it will be passed today—are in respect of that report. The other costs will not be incurred until the building regulations are passed. Indeed, a full public consultation process and a regulatory impact assessment will examine the various costs and benefits associated with any of the Bill's measures. The Bill contains enabling powers—it does not impose those costs.
However, there are three provisions in the Bill that the Government cannot support: the report relating to the Warm Homes and Energy Conservation Act 2000, which is dealt with in subsections (4), (5) and (6) of clause 5; planning authority energy efficiency targets in respect of development plans, as described in clause 7; and energy efficiency as a condition of licensing of houses in multiple occupation, as described in clause 8.
Mr. Eric Forth (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): Can the Minister make it clear whether the costs that he believes will flow from this money resolution arise from the Bill as drafted, or from the Bill in the form that he assumes it will take after consideration in Committee? Is he basing his figures on an assumption on his part of what the Committee will do to the Bill, or on the Bill as it is today?
Phil Hope: That is very similar to what was said by the hon. Member for North-East Hertfordshire (Mr. Heald). I have just specified the parts of the Bill that the Government will not support in Committee or on Third Reading, and the hon. Member for Hazel Grove has accepted what we have said. The only real issue tackled in the motion is the direct costs of the biennial report. Each of the measures that we do not support would require a significant input from central Government or local authorities. We have not costed those resources, as the hon. Gentleman said on Second Reading that he would withdraw the relevant clauses. That is why we can be confident about the security of the motion.
2.30 pm
Mr. Oliver Heald (North-East Hertfordshire) (Con): On 30 January the Front-Bench spokesman was my hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond), but I was present.
We support parts of the Bill. My hon. Friend made that clear when he said that no one could argue with a proposal to make buildings more energy-efficient and water-efficient, and to make homes and commercial properties more crime-resistant. He also said that clause 1 sensibly widened the ambit of the building regulations. He did, however, object to the breadth of the regulations proposed in clause 2, which he described as a mixed bag. He was particularly critical of the regime for regular inspection of security systems, because of the recurring costs to householders. He had further anxieties about clauses 2 and 3. It was clear that Conservative Members were worried about the breadth and cost of the Bill, and
about what would be imposed on home owners. Meanwhile, as the Minister very fairly said, the Government were concerned about the ambit of clause 2, and about the other three clauses that he mentioned.All parties agreed that the Bill should go into Committee, where it should be carefully scrutinised.
Mr. Heald: I do not suggest for a moment that my right hon. Friend held that view, but it was the view of the Front-Bench spokesmen. We should also bear in mind the fact that this is a private Member's Bill.
Mr. Heald: I am glad my right hon. Friend accepts that. Anyway, the feeling on all sides was that the Bill should go into Committee and be scrutinised properly, and that requires a money resolution. As I said earlier, however, it is incumbent on the Minister to tell us the costs as the Bill stands. It has not yet gone into Committee, and we do not know what the outcome will be. The hon. Member for Hazel Grove (Mr. Stunell) has given some assurances, but I understand that they do not cover, for example, all the objections to clause 2. We need to know what the Bill would cost if it retained its present form, and what it would cost if it were slimmed down, as the Minister hopes it will be.
The Minister seems to think that the cost would be £50,000. Surely, however, all the local authorities involved, all the Government buildings and all the other Government and public sector provisions would be affected by some of the duties that the regulations are likely to impose.
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