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Mr. Gerrard: Is not the immigration appellate tribunal already pretty good at filtering out the cases
that stand no real chance? Of the cases that are considered, a significant number succeed. The tribunal already filters out those without merit quite efficiently.
Mr. Lammy: My hon. Friend must remember that within the single tier we have the mechanism of a review, headed by a High Court judge. The average legal experience of a judge in the tribunal, prior to becoming an old-style adjudicator, is 22 and a half years. The average experience of those who have become adjudicators—we have expanded the number—is just under five years more. We are talking about people making important determinations for asylum seekers in this country who have just shy of 30 years' legal experience. This is not some second-rate, old-style system. It is an important system that will consider important matters.
Mr. Bacon: Will the Under-Secretary give way?
Mr. Lammy: I am going to make some progress. I have five minutes remaining and the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) wants to speak as well.
From the outset, some appeals will be listed for hearing before a panel of immigration judges. These will be listed if it is thought that that the appeal may give rise to a complex or novel issue where authoritative case law is required. It may be possible that complexity will emerge during or after a hearing by a single judge; if so, the case will be re-listed to be heard by a panel. The appeal determinations made by the tribunal should be final, and the decisions fully comply with our obligations under article 13. We are not stopping there, which is why we have the review mechanism within the tribunal.
Rob Marris (Wolverhampton, South-West) (Lab): I have a lot of sympathy with what my hon. Friend is proposing, but the sticking point for me is the removal of the right to judicial review. He will know that in order to go for judicial review, the applicant needs to get leave for judicial review under RSC order 53; therefore, there is a filtering mechanism in the system already. I urge him to retain that filtering mechanism under RSC order 53 and to retain judicial review as a bulwark for the protection of the individual against the state.
Mr. Lammy: Under proposed new section 108B, where there is a clear error of law that would substantially alter the original decision, the person will be able to have that review, which will be conducted by a High Court judge. The mechanism exists within the single tier.
I should add that the new appeal structure will preserve a continuing role for the appellate courts. We propose in proposed new section 108B a new referral process to the Court of Appeal or the Court of Session. This enables the tribunal to benefit from the appellate court's expert opinion, but without reintroducing opportunities for deliberate delay.
I wish to refer to Government amendments Nos. 78 to 81 and to amendment No. 97, tabled by the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (David Davis). The Government amendments respond to concerns raised by the Joint Committee on Human Rights and
other hon. Members. I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for amendment No. 97 and I hope that he finds that the Government amendments meet his concerns. The Government amendments clarify the scope of the ouster provision in proposed new section 108B. They make clear the Government's intention that legitimate challenges to IND decisions, particularly those decisions on arrest or detention, will not come within the scope of the ouster, which applies only to removal or deportation decisions.
Mr. Garnier: One of the many points that concern me about the Minister's remarks was his suggestion that judges should have discussions. Will those discussions be in open court? Will they be recorded, so that the applicant or the Home Office can hear the content of them? Will they be secret discussions, unavailable to public scrutiny?
Mr. Lammy: The hon. Gentleman makes his point badly.
In conclusion, our proposal is fair and just, it includes a review mechanism and it meets our obligations under European—[Interruption.]
Mr. Bacon: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It is right that the House should know whether the certificate from the Home Secretary that the original Bill is in accordance with the Human Rights Act 1998 stands, as it is not on this Bill—
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): Order. I suspect that the hon. Gentleman's point is one for debate rather than a matter for the Chair.
Mr. Lammy: May I confirm that of course the certificate stands? We have that obligation to the House when we introduce a Bill, but not when the Bill is changed; it will be there again when we introduce—
It being Nine o'clock Mr. Deputy Speaker put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair, pursuant to Order [this day].
The House divided: Ayes 97, Noes 303.
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Allan, Richard
Austin, John
Baker, Norman
Barnes, Harry
Barrett, John
Beith, rh A. J.
Bennett, Andrew
Brake, Tom (Carshalton)
Breed, Colin
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burnett, John
Burnside, David
Burstow, Paul
Cable, Dr. Vincent
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies (NE Fife)
Carmichael, Alistair
Caton, Martin
Chidgey, David
Cohen, Harry
Coleman, Iain
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cotter, Brian
Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Davey, Edward (Kingston)
Dawson, Hilton
Doughty, Sue
Drew, David (Stroud)
Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Etherington, Bill
Ewing, Annabelle
Fisher, Mark
Flynn, Paul (Newport W)
Foster, Don (Bath)
Garnier, Edward
George, Andrew (St. Ives)
Gerrard, Neil
Gidley, Sandra
Green, Matthew (Ludlow)
Gummer, rh John
Hall, Patrick (Bedford)
Hancock, Mike
Harris, Dr. Evan (Oxford W & Abingdon)
Harvey, Nick
Heath, David
Hoey, Kate (Vauxhall)
Hogg, rh Douglas
Holmes, Paul
Hopkins, Kelvin
Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)
Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate)
Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Keetch, Paul
Kirkwood, Sir Archy
Lamb, Norman
Laws, David (Yeovil)
Lewis, Terry (Worsley)
Llwyd, Elfyn
McDonnell, John
Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)
Marshall-Andrews, Robert
Moore, Michael
Oaten, Mark (Winchester)
Öpik, Lembit
Price, Adam (E Carmarthen & Dinefwr)
Pugh, Dr. John
Reid, Alan (Argyll & Bute)
Rendel, David
Robinson, Mrs Iris (Strangford)
Russell, Bob (Colchester)
Salmond, Alex
Sanders, Adrian
Sedgemore, Brian
Sheerman, Barry
Shepherd, Richard
Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)
Skinner, Dennis
Steinberg, Gerry
Stunell, Andrew
Taylor, Dr. Richard (Wyre F)
Teather, Sarah
Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)
Thurso, John
Tonge, Dr. Jenny
Tyler, Paul (N Cornwall)
Vaz, Keith (Leicester E)
Wareing, Robert N.
Webb, Steve (Northavon)
Weir, Michael
Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon)
Williams, Roger (Brecon)
Willis, Phil
Winnick, David
Wishart, Pete
Tellers for the Ayes:
Richard Younger-Ross and
Mrs. Annette L. Brooke
NOES
Adams, Irene (Paisley N)
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)
Alexander, Douglas
Allen, Graham
Anderson, rh Donald (Swansea E)
Anderson, Janet (Rossendale & Darwen)
Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary
Atherton, Ms Candy
Bailey, Adrian
Banks, Tony
Barron, rh Kevin
Battle, John
Bayley, Hugh
Beard, Nigel
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Miss Anne
Bell, Sir Stuart
Benn, rh Hilary
Benton, Joe (Bootle)
Berry, Roger
Betts, Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blears, Ms Hazel
Blizzard, Bob
Blunkett, rh David
Boateng, rh Paul
Borrow, David
Bradley, rh Keith (Withington)
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)
Bradshaw, Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, rh Nicholas (Newcastle E Wallsend)
Brown, Russell (Dumfries)
Browne, Desmond
Bryant, Chris
Burgon, Colin
Burnham, Andy
Byers, rh Stephen
Caborn, rh Richard
Cairns, David
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Casale, Roger
Cawsey, Ian (Brigg)
Challen, Colin
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)
Chaytor, David
Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)
Clark, Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)
Clark, Paul (Gillingham)
Clarke, rh Charles (Norwich S)
Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & Chryston)
Clelland, David
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ms Ann
Colman, Tony
Cook, Frank (Stockton N)
Cook, rh Robin (Livingston)
Cooper, Yvette
Cranston, Ross
Crausby, David
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, Ann (Keighley)
Cummings, John
Cunningham, rh Dr. Jack (Copeland)
Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)
Cunningham, Tony (Workington)
Curtis-Thomas, Mrs Claire
Dalyell, Tam
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
David, Wayne
Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Dean, Mrs Janet
Dhanda, Parmjit
Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)
Dobson, rh Frank
Donohoe, Brian H.
Doran, Frank
Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)
Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
Edwards, Huw
Efford, Clive
Ennis, Jeff (Barnsley E)
Farrelly, Paul
Field, rh Frank (Birkenhead)
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna
Flint, Caroline
Foster, rh Derek
Foster, Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye)
Foulkes, rh George
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Gapes, Mike (Ilford S)
Gardiner, Barry
George, rh Bruce (Walsall S)
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Gilroy, Linda
Godsiff, Roger
Goggins, Paul
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Grogan, John
Hain, rh Peter
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hamilton, David (Midlothian)
Hanson, David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)
Havard, Dai (Merthyr Tydfil & Rhymney)
Healey, John
Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Hendrick, Mark
Hepburn, Stephen
Heppell, John
Hermon, Lady
Hesford, Stephen
Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia
Heyes, David
Hood, Jimmy (Clydesdale)
Hoon, rh Geoffrey
Hope, Phil (Corby)
Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)
Howarth, George (Knowsley N & Sefton E)
Hoyle, Lindsay
Hughes, Beverley (Stretford & Urmston)
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Humble, Mrs Joan
Hurst, Alan (Braintree)
Hutton, rh John
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Eric
Ingram, rh Adam
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Jamieson, David
Jenkins, Brian
Johnson, Alan (Hull W)
Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)
Jones, Helen (Warrington N)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Jones, Kevan (N Durham)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)
Jowell, rh Tessa
Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)
Kaufman, rh Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keen, Alan (Feltham)
Kelly, Ruth (Bolton W)
Khabra, Piara S.
Kidney, David
Kilfoyle, Peter
King, Andy (Rugby)
King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green & Bow)
Knight, Jim (S Dorset)
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lammy, David
Lawrence, Mrs Jackie
Laxton, Bob (Derby N)
Lazarowicz, Mark
Lepper, David
Leslie, Christopher
Liddell, rh Mrs Helen
Linton, Martin
Love, Andrew
Lucas, Ian (Wrexham)
Lyons, John (Strathkelvin)
McAvoy, Thomas
McCabe, Stephen
McCartney, rh Ian
McDonagh, Siobhain
MacDonald, Calum
MacDougall, John
McGuire, Mrs Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McKenna, Rosemary
Mackinlay, Andrew
McNulty, Tony
MacShane, Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
McWalter, Tony
McWilliam, John
Mahmood, Khalid
Mallaber, Judy
Mandelson, rh Peter
Mann, John (Bassetlaw)
Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)
Marshall, David (Glasgow Shettleston)
Martlew, Eric
Meale, Alan (Mansfield)
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Milburn, rh Alan
Miliband, David
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moonie, Dr. Lewis
Moran, Margaret
Morley, Elliot
Morris, rh Estelle
Mountford, Kali
Mullin, Chris
Munn, Ms Meg
Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)
Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
O'Hara, Edward
Olner, Bill
Organ, Diana
Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)
Owen, Albert
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Pearson, Ian
Perham, Linda
Picking, Anne
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter (Burnley)
Plaskitt, James
Pollard, Kerry
Pond, Chris (Gravesham)
Pope, Greg (Hyndburn)
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Prescott, rh John
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Ken
Purnell, James
Quinn, Lawrie
Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N)
Raynsford, rh Nick
Reed, Andy (Loughborough)
Reid, rh Dr. John (Hamilton N & Bellshill)
Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland)
Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW)
Rooney, Terry
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Roy, Frank (Motherwell)
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Ms Christine (City of Chester)
Ryan, Joan (Enfield N)
Salter, Martin
Savidge, Malcolm
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheridan, Jim
Simon, Siôn (B'ham Erdington)
Smith, rh Andrew (Oxford E)
Smith, Angela (Basildon)
Smith, Geraldine (Morecambe & Lunesdale)
Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Squire, Rachel
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Steinberg, Gerry
Stewart, David (Inverness E & Lochaber)
Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Stoate, Dr. Howard
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Straw, rh Jack
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Tami, Mark (Alyn)
Taylor, Dari (Stockton S)
Taylor, David (NW Leics)
Thomas, Gareth (Harrow W)
Timms, Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mark (S Derbyshire)
Touhig, Don (Islwyn)
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Turner, Dr. Desmond (Brighton Kemptown)
Turner, Neil (Wigan)
Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)
Tynan, Bill (Hamilton S)
Walley, Ms Joan
Ward, Claire
Watson, Tom (W Bromwich E)
Watts, David
White, Brian
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, Malcolm
Williams, Betty (Conwy)
Wills, Michael
Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
Woolas, Phil
Worthington, Tony
Wright, Anthony D. (Gt Yarmouth)
Wright, David (Telford)
Wyatt, Derek
Tellers for the Noes:
Mr. Fraser Kemp and
Charlotte Atkins
Question accordingly negatived.
Mr. Deputy Speaker then proceeded to put forthwith the Questions necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that hour.
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