| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I remind the hon. Gentleman, as I did earlier, that we are debating the money resolution rather than the content or merit of the Bill.
Mr. Goodman: Indeed so, Madam Deputy Speaker. I merely wished to express the hope that we might have early sight of any amendments that the Minister might table.
1.50 pm
Dr. Hywel Francis (Aberavon) (Lab): I am delighted to acknowledge the support of my hon. Friend the Minister for the principles underpinning the Bill and I welcome the money resolution. I also acknowledge the strong support from the hon. Member for Wycombe (Mr. Goodman) on behalf of the official Opposition. We all know of the immense contribution that unpaid carers make, which was estimated recently at £57 billion. The Bill and the money resolution are modest acknowledgments of the labour of love of 7 million carers.
As we have heard, Carers UK has undertaken a cost-benefit analysis of the Bill and I hope to make use of that analysis in Committee. I will certainly share with the Minister the papers that have been provided. While it is difficult to quantify precisely the costs and benefits of the Bill, it is beyond dispute that our objective is to reduce health costs, spending on state benefits, and the costs associated with economic inactivity. It follows that we aim to increase work participation rates, which will mean increased revenue from tax and national insurance.
Most important, our aim is to improve carers' health and general well-being. Only carers will be able to measure the true value of the proposed legislation, with its objective of enhancing the lives of carers beyond their caring duties. That is why it has strong cross-party support, as indicated by the fact that early-day motion 602 now has the support of more than 100 Members. It has also received strong support from the Minister for Health and Social Services in the National Assembly for Wales and from outside this House, as we have already heard, from carers, carers' organisations, local authorities, employers and trade unions. For all those reasons, hon. Members on both sides of the House have asked me to welcome the money resolution warmly today.
1.52 pm
Mr. Paul Burstow (Sutton and Cheam) (LD): I, too, welcome the money resolution. I listened to the Minister with interest, and I wish to congratulate the hon. Member for Aberavon (Dr. Francis) on his work in bringing the Bill this far. I also congratulate people outside the House on the detailed work that they have done on the cost benefit analysis that has informed today's debate and, perhaps more important, will inform debate in Committee.
There is no doubt that carers not only make a huge difference to the quality of life of those for whom they care, but provide economic benefits to the country as a
whole in the savings to the NHS. The hon. Gentleman mentioned the figure of £57 billion. The Minister mentioned several of the clauses of the Bill and the concerns that arise about their financial impact. For example, he mentioned clause 1, which I also examined on Second Reading. That clause is drawn so as to focus solely on social services departments, but the Bill would confer a duty similar, if not identical, to those that already exist in race relations legislation and those that are planned for future disability legislation. The regulatory impact assessment for the disability legislation made it clear that substantial burdens would not arise out of a more general duty on public bodies to deal with matters pertaining to promotion of equality for people with disabilities, so it is hard to understand how there could be a greater cost arising from applying a narrower duty in respect of carers. I hope that in Committee it will be possible for the Minister to elaborate on how his Department reached the conclusion that it should be concerned about the financial consequences of clause 1.It is worth stressing that substantial economic benefits will flow from the Bill, if it is successful, not least because—according to the Policy Research Institute—we shall need an additional 2.5 million members of the work force, less than a quarter of which requirement will be met by school and college leavers. In other words, we must attract back to the work force people who, for one reason or another, are not economically active. That means that we must find ways in which we can make it easier for carers to return to work by removing barriers in their way. The Bill is a vital ingredient in achieving that aim.
The Minister also mentioned clause 3, which provides a duty to inform. It is an important keystone provision, because it is the right to know about one's entitlement to an assessment that unlocks so many of the services that carers need. I hope that before the Bill passes into Committee, the Minister will place in the Library a copy of the Department's assessment of its financial impact, so that we can properly scrutinise it as part of our deliberations. I hope that he will also circulate that information to those Members who are fortunate enough to be selected as members of the Committee, so that we can ask the appropriate questions.
In undertaking the assessment, did the Department separate out the costs that would arise directly as a consequence of the Bill and those that would arise as a consequence of the Bill's making people aware of statutory rights that they already have and for which money resolutions have already been passed? In effect, Parliament has already said that money should be available to fulfil the assessment requirements in previous legislation and the service implications that flow from them. It would be useful if the Minister could confirm that point.
I endorse the comments of the hon. Member for Wycombe (Mr. Goodman) when he said that we need early sight of any amendments that the Government will table to the Bill, so that we can have a genuine and informed debate about whether they would help to improve the measure or would gut it of its central purpose. The Department published national priorities guidance in 1998 that required general practitioners to
identify carers by April 2000. As I said on Second Reading, that target was reset in 2002, and the Minister kindly undertook to write to me on the issue after the debate. He did so, but unfortunately in his desire to respond as quickly as possible he was unable to give me the specific figures that I sought. I hope that he will now be able to provide those figures.The money resolution should be passed. This is an important Bill, which will change things for the better for carers, their families, those for whom they care and the wider society.
1.58 pm
Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): As one of those who spoke on Second Reading, I wish to make a few observations. I hope that the Minister will not misunderstand me when I say that his body language today was rather different from his body language on Second Reading. I can only assume that he has received some minutes from the Chief Secretary to the Treasury saying, "While the Government support the Bill in principle and you can say kind words about it, you must make jolly sure that no extra burdens result from it." The Minister nods in assent.
There is nothing more frustrating for the House, and especially for Ministers, than private Members' Bills suffering death by a 1,000 cuts, in Committee or on Report, with the Whips putting up compliant Back Benchers to talk a Bill out or make other difficulties for it. Another problem that may arise is that a Bill gets through but the implementation date is delayed.
All that I ask of the Minister—he is genuinely an extremely reasonable man—is that he talks to the Bill's promoter before the Standing Committee on Wednesday to find out whether it would be possible to reach a compromise and agreement on the amendments that the Government want—
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I must reiterate the remarks that I made earlier. We are debating the money resolution.
Tony Baldry: But, Madam Deputy Speaker, I suggest that the way in which the Minister moved the money resolution and the language that he used laid the ground for a course of action that we have all seen before. Having heard the way in which he laid the ground today, I am trying to suggest that it might be for the greatest happiness of the greatest number if there could be some discussion before next week's Standing Committee to determine whether it would be possible to find agreement to enable the Bill to move forward meaningfully. A lot of people will be extremely disappointed if it is not possible to pass the Bill as a measure that will make a genuine improvement in the situation for carers in this country.
2.1 pm
Dr. Ladyman: With the leave of the House, Madam Deputy Speaker, I shall respond briefly to the debate.
Several hon. Members asked whether the Government think that the Bill, as drafted, would substantially increase costs to the Exchequer, but to a lesser extent than the amount that we would gain from its benefits. I absolutely and totally accept that there are
huge benefits to be gained for society as a whole if the Bill succeeds in its purpose of making it easier for carers to care and get back to work. They would thus pay more taxes, and fewer benefits would have to be paid, and they would be more content and able to continue in their caring role.I stress that the Bill is a private Member's Bill and, as such, a budget is not associated with it. If we were considering a Government Bill, there would be detailed assessments of costs and we would have a detailed money resolution so that the House knew exactly how much it would cost. However, if a private Member's Bill is to succeed it must be tightly defined, tightly written and specific. We must all understand exactly what such a Bill means. My worry about the Bill—clause 1 is a good example of this—is that its current wording does not make it clear exactly what councils would be expected to do. We know what hon. Members and the people who drafted it want it to do and we know what carers want it to do. Our job, as a Parliament, is to ensure that the Bill says what we want it to do.
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |