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Mr. Dobson: We should also consider the balance to be struck between the right of an individual to sue if little Johnny breaks his arm and the fact that another 500 children are deprived of play facilities as a result. I may be displaying my vaguely socialist background, but should we not consider society in general, rather than letting the rights of individuals have primacy at all times?
Mr. Love: I note that the only hon. Member who did not say, "Hear, hear", was the hon. Member for Torridge and West Devon, who is, I believe, a qualified solicitor. I personally have considerable sympathy for the point made by my right hon. Friend, but it might not be taken into account in a court of law.
Mr. Burnett: I just did not feel particularly vociferous. All I would say is that if the balance is against volunteers, it should be redressed.
Mr. Love: I would not demur from that viewpoint. I was questioning whether it would be better to strike the balance so as to allow volunteering to continue while ensuring safeguards for potential victims of volunteering activities. I raise that as a matter of principle; it would be for members of the Committee to go through the mechanics. The more who are legally qualified, the better—but they should not all be lawyers.
Mr. Dobson: I have had some sympathy with everything that my hon. Friend has said so far, but I think that the fewer lawyers, the better would be a reasonable motto for the Committee.
Mr. Love: I shall restrict my comments for the sake of my hon. Friends who are legally qualified.
I cannot resist commenting on clause 2, subsections (5) to (7), which provide that the judiciary should receive training about volunteering. At first, I was superficially attracted to that, although I wondered whether, as almost all our judges come from a certain stratum of society, we should start by giving them courses on how ordinary people live, think and go about their business. Judges and others who sit on the bench regularly undertake training—that is part and parcel of their function. However, I am not sure what impact, if any, training on volunteering would have. I understand that the origin of the proposal was a case in which a judge overruled expert advice on volunteering. That decision could be challenged, given that it is almost always recognised in court that expert witnesses are set against each other so that the judge is able, without favouring one or the other, to take a view on which parts of their evidence are admissible. I am not sure that training would make a significant difference to a judge's understanding of the volunteering movement.
I want to discuss insurance, data protection and the good Samaritan clause. The Financial Services Authority is under pressure to regulate in some areas where it has not previously done so. I was therefore not surprised to discover that in January 2005 new regulatory guidance is to be issued on advice that voluntary associations give on insurance. Although I understand the concerns that have been expressed about that, we should look at the situation more closely. A case in point would be an affinity group such as a football, rugby or golf union that decided to offer a credit card to its member associations at a very high rate of interest. The advantage in its doing so would be that it would get a better payment for each credit card that was taken out, but the question is whether it should be held in some way liable for the very high rate of interest that its members have to pay. In my view, it has a responsibility to ensure that any recommendation that it gives as an umbrella group meets the needs of the ordinary club members and volunteers who take it up. Regulation is required for that purpose. It should be light-touch regulation, but having none at all does not adequately protect ordinary volunteers in such circumstances.
Considerable concern has been expressed in the volunteering movement about rising premiums and insurance being withdrawn. A working group has been investigating that and will make recommendations, but, as always, it is a slow process. Can the Minister reassure me that the Government will take the issue on board?
The Bill provides for a variety of exemptions from the Data Protection Act 1998 that would allow disclosure of contact details and the names of the officers of voluntary groups. It would also allow disclosure of information if that were considered to be in the public interest. In those circumstances, the data controller would not need to abide by the conditions of the Act. That appears to offer carte blanche for all disclosure, provided that the person who discloses the information can say, "I did it in good faith." That goes too far; it is a blanket exemption, which is inconsistent with the Act and the existing derogations from it. They have been carefully worked out and the Committee needs to consider whether clause 4 is a sensible way forward. Would political parties, which are also voluntary associations, be covered by clause 4? Perhaps the hon. Member for Canterbury or the Under-Secretary could answer that. We would have to consider carefully how to separate political parties from the rest of the voluntary movement.
I want to express one anxiety about the good Samaritan clause. It states that actions should be taken "in good faith". Such actions will not
- "be liable at common law for any harm"
I support the principle behind the Bill. I want volunteering to increase and I accept that a private Member's Bill may have only limited purchase. However, I have several anxieties, and the promoter, the Government and members of the Committee that considers the Bill need to think carefully about some of the problems. Several clauses need to be clarified. The Bill does not tackle the main issues for volunteering, but if it is honed, it can make a tangible difference to our volunteering activities.
The Government have already taken up some of the anxieties that the hon. Member for Canterbury expressed. I hope that the Government and the hon. Gentleman will interact to determine when it is more appropriate for the Government to take action and when such action is more appropriate through the Bill, and to ensure that that happens.
My biggest reservations are about the exemptions that relate to insurance and advice and especially to data protection, and the shift in the balance. I am worried that the shift may go too far. If we are to have a measure of which the House can be proud when it returns for Third Reading, changes must be made.
11.4 am
Mr. Ian Taylor (Esher and Walton) (Con): We have been treated to an extended but careful analysis of the Bill by the hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr. Love) and I am sure that it will give plenty of cause for reflection in Committee.
I am happy to sponsor the Bill. My hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr. Brazier) has done an enormous amount of work and I am delighted that he has taken the opportunity to promote the Bill. Like all private Members' Bills, there may be occasional imperfections in the measure's drafting, but Ministers—especially someone as shrewd as the Under-Secretary—know that support for the Bill encompasses the ability to help to redraft aspects of it constructively in Committee to ensure that its principles survive and that it gets Government endorsement.
I am delighted that we are considering the issues that the Bill covers. The House of Commons gets much criticism, but there is a great deal of frustration among volunteering organisations about some of the pressures that we have discussed today, and we are here on a Friday morning, volunteering to talk about them. That is a signal step forward.
The right hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras (Mr. Dobson) made a good speech and told a sad story, which did not have an unhappy ending, about his son. I should therefore share with hon. Members a story of my own. When one of my two sons was two years old, he woke up feeling very excited on Christmas day, got out of bed, fell over his Christmas presents and broke a leg. My wife was minded to sue Father Christmas until some
of the implications of that were realised in the Taylor household. In case there are children listening, I shall not explain them precisely.
Mr. Peter Luff (Mid-Worcestershire) (Con): Does my hon. Friend believe that Father Christmas is a volunteer or a professional?
Mr. Taylor: According to my family tradition, he is a volunteer and a man of great and infinite wisdom. I do not know whether that view is widely shared. Obviously, there are times of the year when he has to act professionally.
Were it not for volunteers, the quality of life in my constituency would be dramatically worse. I am sure that that applies to all hon. Members. I recently wrote a pamphlet, copies of which are available from my office, on corporate social responsibility. It tries to get corporate Britain increasingly to understand the importance of its involvement in encouraging people in the workplace to be volunteers in society. When conducting the research for the pamphlet, I was particularly struck by the calculation that volunteering in its widest sense contributes approximately £62 billion to the economy. That is equivalent to Government spending on health and social services in England and Wales. It is an extraordinary amount. If volunteers suddenly decided to stop volunteering, the taxpayer would be asked to contribute to enable at least some of those functions to continue.
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