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Mr. Ian Taylor: Let me make it clear that those who support the Bill are not suggesting that incompetent volunteers should be encouraged, and none of the organisations that back the Bill would approve of that either. Training and expertise are clearly required. The point is that even trained and expert volunteers can be vulnerable because of the increasingly litigious society in which we live.
Roger Casale: I am not suggesting that anyone has said that that should be a consequence of the Bill. I am trying to point out that it might be a consequence of the Bill and raising it as an issue for debate. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for responding to it and for recognising that volunteers are often very well qualified and take a great of pride in their professionalism and their standards of performance. Voluntary organisations are often leaders in their field.
Whatever the merits of the Bill, there are many other things that we might do to reduce the risks to volunteers and to break down barriers to volunteering—things that, in the view of some, would be more effective and protect us from the unwanted consequences that implementation of this well meaning, but perhaps misdirected, Bill might have.
I would like to make one further point about how we can promote volunteering and encourage better recruitment and use of volunteers. Again, I am indebted to Russell Humphreys, of the Wimbledon Guild, for having pointed out that the biggest pool of volunteers throughout the country consists of people connected to local churches. I am not a Catholic myself, but most of my family are, and our family parish church in Wimbledon—the Sacred Heart Catholic church—has up to 400 volunteers on its books. Most of those are engaged in voluntary activities closely linked to the activities of the church itself.
Mr. Humphreys pointed out that if there were a co-ordinator for all the different voluntary networks linked to churches, there would probably be a volunteer for almost every street in the country. He also talked about the possibility of introducing a national volunteer corps, like the one in America. Perhaps by giving assistance to students as they go through university, or by giving help with expenses or through the tax system, we could promote volunteering.
One of the main drivers of the Bill is the desire to promote volunteering and recruit volunteers. We do not want to deter them, but let us not forget that there are many other measures that are not yet in place but which would also have a good effect. I am not sure what the answer is, ultimately, and I welcome the debate on the Bill, but we need to set it in context.
I am well aware that the national girl guides association is in favour of the Bill, and would be particularly affected by it, not because it exposes its volunteers to unnecessary risk, but because, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras (Mr. Dobson) said, what we seek to do, both with guiding and many other related activities, is to challenge people. We do not want to expose them to risk, but we want to challenge them and enable them to assess risks for themselves, so as to encourage confidence and self-esteem.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. After 32 minutes, I am becoming aware of a tendency to repetition on the part of the hon. Gentleman, so I must caution him on those grounds.
Roger Casale: I shall seek to make my points more powerfully, Mr. Deputy Speaker, so that I do not need to repeat myself.
The girl guides association has a wealth of experience to look back on—90 years, in my constituency. One of the issues troubling the guides is the fact that more and more people, especially women, are active in the work force and in their professional lives. People are working longer and longer hours, and the difficulties of balancing work and home life lead to problems with recruiting.
I spoke to Maia Rabagliati, of the Girl Guides, this morning, and she told me that they had had to close two branches in south Wimbledon and Colliers Wood. The reason for that is not the concern that the Bill is addressing, although the guides support the Bill, but is part of a much wider picture.
Perhaps it is time for me to bring my remarks to a close, because I know that many other hon. Members are keen to contribute to this important debate. In summary, there is a concern about the impact that the growth of the compensation culture has on certain sectors of the voluntary sector, in deterring volunteers.
I recognise that there is a problem and it is incumbent on us to try to deal with it. However, I am not convinced that the Bill is the right measure to do that, because I feel that it might have some unwelcome consequences—but I look forward to seeing how those will be dealt with if the Bill receives a Second Reading and progresses on into Committee.
Whatever our criticisms of the details of the Bill, we should never forget the value of the voluntary sector, or lose sight of the many measures that are still necessary, and which would help to recruit, train and enhance the important contribution of those volunteers whom we all need so much to enhance the quality of life in our communities, and retain their services.
11.55 am
Mr. Eric Joyce (Falkirk, West) (Lab): As I understand it, the Bill is designed to overcome the problems faced by the voluntary and community sector in recruiting and managing volunteers. It reflects concerns that potential volunteers may have about their liability under several Acts, including the Financial Services Act 1986 and data protection legislation. Like all hon. Members, I have many voluntary organisations in my constituency, and I have often heard volunteers and people responsible for keeping those organisations on the road, often with few resources and a very limited pool of volunteers, complaining about the way in which the perception that we live in a more litigious culture than ever before makes their job harder.
I have been in the position—no doubt many other Members have too—of trying to encourage people to become involved in voluntary activities that I have been involved in, such as sport, which in my case includes judo, hill walking and climbing. I can attest to the fact that it seems to be harder each year to get people to take on responsibilities when they could be held legally liable. That applies even to activities that are modestly paid, let alone voluntary activities.
The difficulty with the Bill lies in the detail. We are naturally sympathetic to the plight of volunteers when an accident happens, but we need to strike a careful balance between the rights of the volunteer and the rights of those who participate in voluntary activities, especially children. The protection of children is at the forefront of my mind.
My instinct is to be sympathetic to the general thrust of the Bill, if not to every detail, and I shall make most of my comments about clause 5, which has become known as the good Samaritan clause, and for which I have a great deal of sympathy. It seeks to prevent people who assist someone whom they believe is suffering or injured from being held liable for any harm that they may inadvertently cause by their intervention.
A primary objection to the clause is based on the consideration of the interests of a potential claimant who may be injured in such circumstances. A ruling, or rather an opinion, by Winfield and Jolowicz on the subject of tort says:
- "It goes without saying, of course, that if a person engaged in a rescue which he was not obliged to undertake negligently inflicts some positive harm upon the claimant he may be liable for that for he has then left the claimant worse off than he was before."
As I understand it, advice from another commentator said that it is surely better for someone who has no specialist knowledge of, let us say, first aid not to become involved in a situation in which someone is injured. There is unquestionable logic to that. If someone is injured in the street or in some fairly accessible place, it is probably better to leave them and to call for help than to get involved and perhaps cause greater damage. I see the logic of that opinion. However, when it comes to outdoor activities, I do not think that that necessarily follows.
I have in mind activities such as climbing that may involve a life-or-death situation in which someone has fallen and might have—we must always assume this—a
spinal injury. However, if they are left in place, they may die of exposure if the weather is particularly inclement. If a climber or a walker—people climbing on a rock face are often in full view of casual walkers—were to chance upon a situation in which someone had fallen and, even if they were not absolutely certain as to what to do but thought that that person who had fallen might need to be moved because the weather was particularly bad, the legal advice represented by Winfield and Jolowicz would be that they might be legally liable if they became involved. I am not a lawyer, but, as far as I understand it, one would have no liability if one simply walked away.One might not be legally liable if one walks away, but I understand that in some European countries, particularly France, it is unlawful to walk away from a situation when one could have assisted. That is not the position in this country, so there is no corollary legal liability to the moral obligation that someone would have to become involved.
I was fairly well trained in the past to deal, for example, with relatively difficult situations that arise in the hills. However, when one is dealing with a situation in which someone might be seriously injured, there is inherently an element of risk, particularly of spinal injury. One has to make a judgment. The idea that someone should take on a legal liability by making a judgment and taking on risk is a pity. That is the law as it stands, and that is why I am particularly sympathetic to clause 5.
Clause 5 is only one element in the Bill, but although I do not intend to go into the other clauses in detail, they have a distant effect on volunteering. Concern remains about increased liability in the increasingly litigious world in which we live, but the number of people involved in volunteering is unquestionably on the up. Since 2001, the number of volunteers in this country has increased by more than 1 million. That exceeds the challenge set by the Prime Minister in 2000. We are on course to exceed the Home Office target of a rise of 5 per cent. in volunteering and community participation by 2006. That is good news for society as a whole and for every individual who gets involved in volunteering. It does people good; it is a growth activity for the individual as well as helping wider society.
I have great sympathy for clause 5, and I recognise the need to protect participants in all voluntary activities, particularly outdoor activities. When children are involved, that is all the more important. I reiterate my support for clause 5, but I think that the Bill would fail because it fails to strike the right balance between protecting those who are good enough to volunteer and give their time and protecting children from issues such as those surrounding data protection. The Bill's provisions on data protection are particularly weak, because it would fail to give sufficient protection to the children involved in voluntary activities. On that basis, I am unable to support it. However, it is worth while to debate the Bill, because it raises a number of important issues, notably those that I have mentioned in clause 5.
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