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Mr. Gardiner: The hon. Gentleman is, in the biblical sense, preventing me, by which I mean that he anticipates me. He is obviously well aware of the issue, which is a real problem for the voluntary sector.
Costs are a problem, particularly for large organisations—again, I think of the scouts. Organisations do not necessarily have to incur expenses—most parents would be happy to pay for their own criminal record check—but many organisations rely on volunteers and must bear that burden. If we want to promote volunteering in this country, we must address that issue. I understand the hon. Member's requirement not to be contentious and I hope that he has achieved that end and that the Bill will go into Committee, where it can be worked on and improved.
I have not yet dealt with clause 2, which is the main clause of the Bill, on statements of inherent risk. Clause 2(1) states:
- "A volunteer, employee, volunteering body or voluntary organisation may present to any person of full age . . . or to the parent or guardian of any person not of full age . . . who is to undertake any activity or activities administered or managed by or under the control of the volunteer, voluntary organisation or volunteering body, a written statement setting out the principal risks which are inherent to the activity or activities undertaken, whether or not such risks shall involve risks of personal injury or harm or risks to property."
I ask the hon. Gentleman to address the question of how many risk assessments will be needed. I shall set out an example—again, I shall use scouting—which he can consider and respond to. Will the statement of inherent risk be drawn up when someone joins a scout troop? Will it say, "In the scouts, these are the things that we do, these are the sorts of activities that we engage in and this is the statement of inherent risk associated with them"? If the parent or guardian signs on the dotted line and that is it, then it has little material worth and will not provide the comfort and protection that the hon. Gentleman desires.
On the other hand, if a statement of inherent risk were drawn up when a scout group visited a particular location in the Lake district to engage in hill walking at a wintry time of year or engaged in a water sport such as canoeing, it would be a risk assessment of a particular project. It would closely catalogue the inherent risks in the activities undertaken and would allow parents and guardians closely to assess what their children will or will not be doing. Parents and guardians could therefore give genuine and informed consent when they sign the statement of inherent risk, which would be a step towards achieving the protection that the hon. Gentleman seeks to put on to the statute book. He will, however, agree that it would be tremendously labour-intensive to do that done before every activity requiring a risk assessment. It would take considerable time to set out those risks, go to all the parents and guardians of the volunteers involved and secure their consent. I should therefore be grateful for guidance from the hon. Gentleman about what he is trying to do.
Mr. Brazier: The short answer, to borrow the words of the hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr. Love), is that the certificate will be illustrative, not exhaustive. I would expect it to be produced for the annual camp if it involved such activities. I have just signed a certificate for my own children, who are going on annual camp
with the Combined Cadet Force. That certificate, however, would have no legal value in a court, whereas the certificate in the Bill would.
Mr. Gardiner: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that clarification of the attempt to give legal backing to the disclaimer notices that parents sign when their children go on camps or adventures. However, may I pose another question? Like him, I believe that children should be able to undertake healthy pursuits and volunteering, which have many benefits, but I do not want people who undertake activities for voluntary organisations, particularly those that work with children, to be encouraged to sign a waiver or disclaimer that could contribute to bad practice. The hon. Gentleman will know that organisations such as the CCF and the scouts double-check and even triple-check the adventure activities that they undertake with children. They ensure that safety precautions are in place, and that there is a belt-and-braces approach to them. Would he comment on the possibility that voluntary organisations that do not have such a strong health and safety record as those two groups might regard such a disclaimer or statement of inherent risk as a means of alleviating them of the burden and responsibility of operating stringent checks? I accept that that is not the intention of the Bill, nor something that any hon. Member would want to happen. But I should be grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his comments about how his proposal can be implemented without organisations whose health and safety management is not so tight being let off the hook by the statement of inherent risk. [Interruption.] I am delighted to hear him say from a sedentary position that we can return to the matter. Perhaps he will do so in his concluding remarks, or we can continue the discussion in Committee.
- "if the adult person concerned or the parent or guardian of the child concerned accepts and agrees to the Statement of Inherent Risk that the person or parent of guardian shares responsibility for the safe conduct of the activity"
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. We are reminded in "Erskine May" that it is not customary on Second Reading to go into the details of clauses. That is for the Committee stage. I have been very tolerant with the hon. Gentleman so far, but he should bear in mind our conventions.
Mr. Gardiner: You are always tolerant with all hon. Members, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and I am grateful for your advice and wry counsel. I shall conclude my remarks.
There are problems with the Bill. It is not perfect, but few Bills are when they come before the House on Second Reading. That is why we have the Committee stage. Bills that have the broad support of the Chamber on the principles that they seek to establish can be refined in Committee. The hon. Member for Canterbury has done the House and the voluntary sector a service by introducing the Bill. I have reservations, particularly in relation to clause 2, and I hope that he will address those now or in our deliberations in Committee. I extend my heartiest congratulations to him. I shall be pleased to see the Bill proceed.
12.32 pm
Mrs. Jacqui Lait (Beckenham) (Con): I add my congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr. Brazier) on promoting such an interesting and useful Bill, which addresses so many of the concerns that we as Members of Parliament are regularly faced with from volunteers and the voluntary sector. I thank hon. Members who sponsored the Bill and who are present today, and the organisations that helped my hon. Friend to draft the Bill. It is not an easy subject. People have been grappling with the issue of how to ensure that those who volunteer are not put at risk, and the Bill provides an ingenious solution to the problems that so many volunteers and volunteering organisations have to deal with.
I shall not take too long, as we are keen to hear the Minister's remarks. We have had a long and thorough debate. I agree, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that from time to time we were verging on a Committee stage debate, but it is extremely useful for my hon. Friend to know the tenor of the various amendments that are likely to be tabled. It was a useful exercise for those who indulged in it, and good luck to them for getting away with it for so long.
We have all supported the Bill. We are all well aware that there is a crisis in volunteering—I hope I do not exaggerate—and most of us cited examples from our constituencies. I am sure that we can all think of such examples. The cadet corps, the guides and even my local Alzheimer's society are having difficulty in recruiting volunteers. As I understand it, the Bill seeks to address one part of that crisis.
I welcome the support for the Bill expressed by the right hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras (Mr. Dobson), who is unfortunately no longer present in the Chamber; he may well have gone to a constituency function. It is very rare for me to support anything that he says. Although I welcome his comments, I am slightly worried about whether the inclusion of local authority play areas would go substantially beyond the terms of the Bill. I am sure that that was not his intention, but as we know, trying to secure the introduction of a private Member's Bill is difficult enough without widening its scope rather than focusing on the key areas.
It was encouraging to hear from the hon. Member for Torridge and West Devon (Mr. Burnett) that, as a lawyer, he deplores the litigation culture. We must encourage more lawyers to think along those lines. His analysis of the certificate of inherent risk was very useful, and I am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury is very grateful to him for it.
The hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr. Love), who has already apologised for having to leave the debate—I hope that he enjoys his constituency function—took a precautionary approach, and started the analysis of the Bill that will be so useful to my hon. Friend. Without wishing to volunteer the hon. Gentleman for service on the Committee, I must say that I thought that some of his analysis would be very useful in that context.
My hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton (Mr. Taylor) has long been a supporter of volunteers and volunteering. I commend his recent book about corporate social responsibility, which I have read, as it coincides with an interest of mine. Of course, the emphasis was on the idea that such responsibility should
be furthered at the behest of the company and not put into a legislative framework. He made very interesting points about the need for changes in the insurance advice given to voluntary organisations.The hon. Member for Wimbledon (Roger Casale), who will probably return to the Chamber, lavished praise on volunteers, but then proceeded to question just about every single part of the Bill. He, too, may wish to serve on the Committee, but I hope that he was not trying to scupper the efforts of my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury.
The hon. Member for Falkirk, West (Mr. Joyce), who is clearly potentially open to legal challenge in respect of his own volunteering activities, made some useful points. It is my understanding—my hon. Friend will be able to correct me if I am wrong—that the good Samaritan clause comes into play only if the effect of the good Samaritan's work is beneficial. I think I am right in saying that such a person could be challenged for giving incorrect advice as part of a court case for negligence. Indeed, that is part of the distinction that needs to be drawn in the Bill as to whether people who have signed a certificate of inherent risk or are covered by one would be prosecutable for having committed criminal negligence, without being protected by that certificate.
Finally, we heard from the hon. Member for Brent, North (Mr. Gardiner), who would be an admirable member of the Committee to which I hope the Minister will allow the Bill to proceed.
We have all agreed that there is a need for these activities. In the past week, we have seen the launch of various Government initiatives that attempt to deal with child obesity. I thought that there were some mixed messages when the Secretary of State for Health posed by a supermarket checkout near a basketful of fresh fruit while the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport decided that she did not approve of a ban on advertising fatty foods. Although I happen to agree with her, it was she who promoted a ban on tobacco advertising, so there is not much logic there.
It is important that children get as much opportunity as possible to exercise, to enjoy the many sports that are available, to get fit and, indeed, to learn something of the wider world. Many city children benefit from visits to farms in the countryside, but, because they have never been to a farm before, they are unable to assess the inherent risks involved as a child brought up in the country would. As the right hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras explained so clearly, the key is to ensure that children are capable of assessing risk; otherwise, as my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton observed, the end result will be chaos in society.
Most people who wish to volunteer rightly do not put the fear of litigation and bureaucracy at the top of their list of concerns, but it is high on the list of those involved in activities with inherent risk. To give a constituency example, I am a social member of my local rugby club, where 250 youngsters learn to play rugby every Sunday. They start from an age at which, when I was younger, they would not even have held a rugby ball. We need to ensure that sufficient volunteers are willing to come forward to teach them to play rugby safely, but many parents cite the problem of possible litigation. The Bill is an imaginative and sensible attempt to reassure
volunteers that they will be protected against potentially malicious challenges to the way in which they look after their charges.Under the Bill, any volunteer who acted in a criminally negligent way would still be subject to court action. However, accidents happen. A great deal of the compensation culture derives from the feeling that somebody must be blamed for accidents that most commonsensical people would regard as being nobody's fault. Any proposal that would place a curb on that increasing litigation is sensible.
The Bill deals with insurance costs. Because of the compensation culture, many voluntary organisations and sports clubs with perfectly good records face enormous rises in their premiums for public liability. They tend to react uncomprehendingly. The Bill would reduce those insurance costs and, in turn, the financial burden placed on volunteers who pay subscriptions.
The Bill is imaginative in trying to amend the Financial Services Authority's approach to so much finance—creating an audit trail, which means an enormous amount of bureaucracy, box ticking and paper—through sports-covering insurance and removing from the definition of advice the sale of insurance and premiums to individual clubs. That is sensible. Sports governing bodies are sensible and can usually afford professional advice. There is no need for them to be obliged to go through the "advice" undergone by everyone who has ever had to buy a financial product. It appears fairly unnecessary to most of us most of the time.
I welcome the Bill's provision for training the judiciary about the terms of the measure. It is sensible to be told in an annual report how many members of the judiciary have received such training. People increasingly wish to know whether those who sit in judgment over them are sufficiently qualified. We all probably believe that that they are, but there are so many specialist areas.
I can envisage a lively debate in Committee on data protection. It is a complex subject and I can understand why my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury was chary of taking up the issue of criminal records, but know from constituents about the number of complaints about box ticking and I hope that a sensible solution can be found in Committee.
Let us consider the good Samaritan clause. We have often heard tales of people who pass by on the other side out of fear. Anything that encourages people to help and bring about a beneficial outcome should be supported. The Bill attempts to do that. Again, I am sure that there will be plenty of debate in Committee about the way in which to make it most effective. I hope that the principle of the good Samaritan clause will remain if the measure reaches Third Reading.
The official Opposition wish the Bill all the best. We want it to receive Third Reading, go to another place and become law so that voluntary organisations and volunteers get a bit more protection, which enables them to continue to do the welcome job that they have done for so many years. It saves us so much money and gives them a great deal of pleasure. It gives me great pleasure to support the Bill.
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