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Rights of Way (Amendment)
Janet Anderson accordingly presented a Bill to amend the law relating to public rights of way for vehicles: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time on Friday 21 May, and to be printed [Bill 70].
Mr. Patrick McLoughlin (West Derbyshire) (Con): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. A ten-minute Bill has just been introduced that is of very great concern to a number of hon. Members who represent large country constituencies. I congratulate the hon. Member for Rossendale and Darwen (Janet Anderson) on her success, but is it not the practice, first and foremost, that if an hon. Member opposes a Bill, he or she should at least follow that through with a shout of no, which the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik) failed to do; and, secondly, that at least one Minister from the relevant Department should attend in the Chamber when such a Bill is debated? I very much regret that, on such an important issue, no Minister is present from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, which is currently consulting on this matter.
Lembit Öpik: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Just to clarify, you may not have heard me but I did say no—but not very loudly. As you are aware and as I made clear to your office, I felt that it would be an inappropriate use of parliamentary time to divide the House, when we are looking for a consultative solution, rather than simply trying to make a point on the Floor of the House.
Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. If you check the records, you will find that there were many occasions when previous Speakers used to tell people that they had to
oppose a motion. Indeed, when I first came here, they had to shout and divide the House. Why? Simply because not doing so is an abuse of parliamentary time. The Order Paper says that 10 minutes will be allowed for the Member to move the motion and 10 minutes for someone to oppose it. In this case, that individual—a typical Liberal, who does not know whether he is on this earth or fuller's—said that he would not oppose the motion and wanted to get together with my hon. Friend the Member for Rossendale and Darwen (Janet Anderson). Ten minutes for, 10 minutes against—that is the principle. You wasted time, you tin-pot Liberal—shut your gob.
Mr. Speaker: Let me deal with the three points of order, and then I will call the hon. Lady.
I am sure that the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) was not referring to me when he mentioned wasting time.
On the point of order that the hon. Member for West Derbyshire (Mr. McLoughlin) raised, I have been chairing proceedings for quite a long time, as he knows, both in Committee and in the Scottish Grand Committee, and then in the Chamber. When I am in the Chair, I am entitled to express an opinion when hon. Members shout from one side of the House or the other, and I often say that I think that the ayes have it. It is at that stage that an hon. Member can disagree with that opinion. There was a shout—it was a very quiet shout—and I only wish that that was the case at Prime Minister's Question Time. To reply to the point raised by the hon. Member for West Derbyshire: there was a shout. I heard it because I have good hearing.
There is no absolute rule about the appropriate Minister sitting on the Treasury Bench, but it is a courtesy for them to do so. I would expect that courtesy to continue, and I hope that Ministers from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs will take note of what I have said.
Janet Anderson: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I wish to respond to the point raised by the hon. Member for West Derbyshire (Mr. McLoughlin) and to what you have said by pointing out that the Minister for Rural Affairs and Local Environmental Quality has been very supportive of my introducing the Bill. In fact, he left a message with me this morning to say that he was very sorry that he could not be present in the House because he had another engagement. I assure the hon. Gentleman that DEFRA is very much taking an interest in the matter, and the Minister did not intend any discourtesy to the House.
Mr. Speaker: I thank the hon. Lady for making that clear.
Orders of the DayJustice (Northern Ireland) Bill [Lords]
[Relevant document: The Second Report from the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, Session 2003–04, HC 302-I, on the Separation of Paramilitary Prisoners at HMP Maghaberry, is relevant to Clause 12 of the Bill (Transfer of prisoners).
Order for Second Reading read.
Mr. Speaker: I should inform the House that I have selected the amendment in the name of the Leader of the Opposition.
12.51 pm
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Paul Murphy): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
The Bill represents another step forward on Northern Ireland's path to peace, stability and justice. At the heart of the agreement was a commitment to build a police service and a criminal justice system that would enjoy the support of all sections of Northern Ireland society. It is our view that the Bill is proof that the Government are still completely committed to achieving that end—and to completing the implementation of the Good Friday agreement.
Today is also an opportunity for us to judge just how much has been already been achieved in that task. It is an opportunity for us to look beyond the difficulties that currently confront us and to remind ourselves, and the people of Northern Ireland, of how much has changed and how much has improved since the signing of the agreement almost six years ago.
The political and peace process in Northern Ireland has reached a defining moment, however. Paramilitarism survives in Northern Ireland, and its survival, in defiance of the agreement and the wishes of the people of Northern Ireland, is what we must now tackle. The attempted abduction of a man last month, in broad daylight and cold blood, was but the latest example of the paramilitary activity that has undermined the Good Friday agreement in some respects and, in its indirect impact, has denied the people of Northern Ireland the chance to run their own affairs.
Those who were party to the 1998 agreement acknowledged—some explicitly, some implicitly—that paramilitary activity would not disappear overnight. But six years on, there can be no justification for continuing paramilitary violence. Each corrosive act of crime or violence eats into the hope to which the agreement gave rise.
Mr. David Trimble (Upper Bann) (UUP): The Secretary of State referred to the attempted abduction and who knows what else recently. Will he join me and, I am sure, other Members of the House in welcoming what appears to be the initiative of the Independent Monitoring Commission in starting an investigation into that incident and perhaps other cases as well? Perhaps he would now like to revise the date by which he would ask it to bring in the report that it appears to have started work on.
Mr. Murphy: The right hon. Gentleman is aware that, during the press conference held by the Independent
Monitoring Commission yesterday, it did not actually say that it would look specifically at this issue; it said that it might. However, he and I agree on the fact that the commission has an extremely important role to play not just in this particular incident—very difficult though it was—but in the overall assessment of paramilitary activity. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach meet tomorrow in Dublin, and I know that they will be discussing the implications of what the right hon. Gentleman and others have said, together with what the IMC said yesterday.
Mr. Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab): Does my right hon. Friend accept that there is a growing feeling in the House that the punishment beatings and exclusions are now a far greater impediment to progress in Northern Ireland than the surrender of arms by the paramilitaries. We know that they have the resources to buy new supplies of arms, should they surrender them. However, ceasing the punishment beatings would show a real change in the character of the people wishing to participate in the public affairs of Northern Ireland.
Mr. Murphy: My right hon. Friend is right on both counts, in that both issues are important. He emphasises the so-called punishment beatings and I agree that that is an area of paramilitary activity in Northern Ireland that is absolutely unforgivable. It erodes the peace process and the political process, and it is wicked in itself. Where I am not quite sure that I agree with him is to dismiss the idea of decommissioning. That is an important part of the Good Friday agreement, but I very much agree with him about so-called punishment beatings.
Mr. Peter Robinson (Belfast, East) (DUP): Following the intervention of the right hon. Member for Upper Bann (Mr. Trimble), may I point out that the Government do not need to ask for an earlier report from the Independent Monitoring Commission? It has the power to bring about an earlier report. Perhaps the Secretary of State could advise the right hon. Member for Upper Bann that, if he finds himself with more time on his hands in the coming weeks and months, he could go to the IMC, like my party has already done, and ask it to bring in an earlier report.
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