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Mr. Murphy: The right hon. Gentleman and I will await with interest the deliberations of the other place on the judicial appointments commission. He is of course aware that a judicial appointments commission exists in Scotland, that the concept of a judicial appointments commission has existed in Northern Ireland since the Good Friday agreement, and that the principle of such a commission was enshrined in the Justice (Northern Ireland) Act 2002. However, we will naturally follow with great interest the deliberations in the other place.
Mr. Trimble: The Secretary of State mentions the judicial appointments commission in Scotland. That operates on a non-statutory basis, so it is rather difficult to get a clear impression of how it is working from this distance. In looking forward to the subsequent proceedings on the Bill—should it receive its Second Reading—will he try to make available to hon. Members details of how that commission operates, what its structure is and what the experience has been in Scotland, because that might be illuminating?
Mr. Murphy: Indeed, it might well be. I cannot give the right hon. Gentleman the details of the Scottish experience off the top of my head, but I can say that the principle of commissions for judicial appointments is not novel.
I emphasise that the continued independence of the judiciary is absolutely integral to the system. The Justice (Northern Ireland) Act 2002 enshrined the principle of judicial independence to which the Government remain fully committed. Indeed, the principle was also highlighted in the part of the Good Friday agreement that dealt with criminal justice.
Turning to the other judicial appointment provisions, the 2002 Act stipulates that lay members of the commission should be representative of the community. The Bill provides that the composition of the commission taken as a whole will, as far as possible, be reflective of the community in Northern Ireland. We think that it is right in principle to make that change in the interest of enhancing public confidence in the justice system.
David Wright (Telford) (Lab): Can my right hon. Friend assure us that the commission will consider not just religious communities but issues relating to women's rights and black and ethnic minority communities? We need to increase their representation through such processes.
Mr. Murphy: My hon. Friend is right, but the commission must reflect society as a whole in Northern Ireland, not just the groups to which he referred.
The 2002 Act placed time limits on lay membership of the commission. It is right that judicial members of the commission should have the same time limits applied to their membership as those that currently apply to non-judicial members, and the Bill provides for that. Merit has been, and will continue to be, the sole basis for judicial appointments. That is non-negotiable. Subject to the principle of merit, a key objective of the commission will be to engage in a programme of action to secure a judiciary that is reflective of Northern Ireland society. I want to make it clear that no one is in the business of appointing applicants on the basis of political opinion, gender or religion. It is important to stress that reflectiveness, as my hon. Friend the Member for Telford (David Wright) said, does not apply just to religious background. There is, in fact, a more obvious and pressing need for more applications from women and people from an ethnic minority background.
Mr. Andrew Hunter (Basingstoke) (Ind Con): Is the Secretary of State thinking about a pool of merit—a pool of people who reach an approved standard from which appointments can be made according to a 50–50 formula or some other criteria?
Mr. Murphy: No, I am not thinking of that. As I said, individual appointments will be made on the basis of merit, but there is nothing wrong in the commission considering whether the judiciary in Northern Ireland and everyone involved in the judicial process reflects Northern Ireland society.
Mr. Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): The Secretary of State mentioned the need to recruit more female police officers in Northern Ireland. However, many young female constituents in Lagan Valley who have applied to join the new police service have successfully passed all the tests and entered the merit pool, but in the end they have not been appointed because they are Protestant—because of the church they attend on Sundays. Female applicants are successful in reaching the merit pool, so why on earth can they not be recruited and their religious affiliation be disregarded?
Mr. Murphy: The hon. Gentleman has made his point forcefully, but I said earlier that the arrangements in place for the Police Service of Northern Ireland resulted from the Patten report and the agreement. In the case of the judiciary, it is important that we try to ensure that we encourage more women and people from ethnic minorities to apply to become members.
Clauses 4 and 5 look forward to the day when justice and policing functions are devolved to the Northern Ireland Assembly. Under that further stage of devolution, when appointing the Lord Chief Justice and Lords Justices of Appeal the First Minister and Deputy First Minister, acting jointly, will make recommendations to the Prime Minister. The Lord Chief Justice, as the head of the judiciary in Northern Ireland, will be consulted by the First Minister and Deputy First Minister, and his views will be made known to the Prime Minister, who will then make a recommendation to the Queen. That builds on the formulation in the 2002 Act, bringing it closer to the original recommendation of the criminal justice review and enshrining the fundamental role of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister in the process.
The House will be aware that on introduction in another place the Bill included a provision dealing with the removal or suspension of judges. That clause was lost, and I would like to signal my intention to reintroduce it as a Government amendment at an appropriate time so that Members of this House will be able to debate the issue. Another provision in the Bill builds on the 2002 Act by placing a duty on the Director of Public Prosecutions for Northern Ireland to refer to the police ombudsman all cases of suspected police malpractice that he comes across in his role as prosecutor. The duty will ensure that the police ombudsman is made aware of allegations of police misconduct which she may not otherwise know of. The duty concerns the transfer of relevant information, and does not change in any way either the DPP's role in reaching decisions about prosecution or the police
ombudsman's role in investigating allegations of police misconduct. That, too, more closely reflects the original review recommendation.
Mr. Kevin McNamara (Hull, North) (Lab): That is not an absolute duty on the DPP, as he has discretion. That was not recognised in the agreement between the two Governments, when there was a compulsory duty on him. The Bill says that he should refer any matter that "appears" to indicate certain things, not that he must do so.
Mr. Murphy: I believe that there will be debates about those issues in Committee.
Mr. Eddie McGrady (South Down) (SDLP): The Minister has not satisfactorily addressed the question. The criminal justice review clearly stated that when an allegation is made it should be referred to the ombudsman. The Bill proposes that matters should be referred if, in the DPP's opinion, there appears to be wrongdoing. Those are two entirely different things, and I believe that the review's proposal should be included in the Bill.
Mr. Murphy: As I said, there are different views and various interpretations of the clause, but I repeat my belief that that will be debated in Committee. My right hon. Friend the Minister of State will return to the issue at the end of this afternoon's debate.
Mr. McNamara: When my right hon. Friend made his original statement, he said that the duty was absolute, so I challenged it. He has now provided a different interpretation in the clause. He will remember that in the Northern Ireland Act 1998 there was an interpretation of such provisions to which, under the rules of interpretation, judges were supposed to pay attention. In fact, judges in the Irish courts refuse to accept his interpretation, so the matter has had to go to the House of Lords.
Mr. Murphy: That is why I have twice stressed that because of the complicated nature of the clause it is best addressed in Committee, when it will be debated in detail. For the sake of accuracy in reports of our proceedings, if anyone wishes for further clarification they will have to wait until my right hon. Friend the Minister of State refers to the matter in detail.
The 2002 Act confirmed the independence of the Director of Public Prosecutions for Northern Ireland. That is another non-negotiable principle. The creation of an offence of seeking to influence the prosecution decision-making process will ensure that those who seek to impinge on the independence of the prosecution will be brought to book.
Mr. Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): Can the Secretary of State explain how the provision will differ from the operation of the existing offence of attempting to pervert the course of justice?
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