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1.31 pm
Mr. David Lidington (Aylesbury) (Con): I beg to move,
- That this House declines to give a Second Reading to the Justice (Northern Ireland) Bill because the Bill will weaken rather than strengthen the criminal justice system in Northern Ireland; will undermine the independence of the judiciary in Northern Ireland; will lead to the greater politicisation of the criminal justice system in Northern Ireland; and will weaken the principle of appointment to the judiciary solely on merit.
Judicial appointments are at the core of the Bill, and the provisions that relate to them are at the core of our reservations. I shall devote most of my speech to them, but I shall first refer to other provisions that the Secretary of State mentioned. Clause 12 deals with the transfer of prisoners. I understand the reasons behind that clause and I do not quarrel with it as a matter of principle, although I question whether, in the light of the Home Secretary's catastrophic mismanagement of the Prison Service in England, there are any spare cells on this side of the water in which to accommodate prisoners sent over from Northern Ireland. I hope that when the Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office, the right hon. Member for Warley (Mr. Spellar) replies, he will be able to confirm whether the Government will later introduce amendments to extend the Bill's scope to include Scotland, as has been reported in parts of the Scottish press.
Lady Hermon: Does the hon. Gentleman also support the making of reciprocal arrangements with the Republic of Ireland to allow disruptive republican prisoners in Maghaberry prison to be transferred to Portlaoise in the Republic?
Mr. Lidington: I should be prepared to look at that proposal with an open mind, although I do not know whether the hon. Lady is suggesting a reciprocal arrangement that would allow the United Kingdom to take prisoners from the Republic. That idea is well worth serious consideration.
It is the Government's foolish and, I regret to say, disgraceful decision to concede the principle of the separation of paramilitary prisoners at Maghaberry that has given rise to clause 12. I visited Maghaberry two weeks ago, and I want to put on record my admiration for the bravery and professionalism of the prison governors and officers working there. As the Secretary of State knows, he has some brave men and women working for him in the Northern Ireland Prison Service and I know that, whatever their personal feelings, they will do their utmost to implement the policy on which Ministers have decided, and attempt to prevent separation from deteriorating into outright segregation.
I notice that the Secretary of State made no reference in his speech to the trenchant conclusion of the Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs—which has a majority of Labour Members—that
- "the separation of paramilitary prisoners . . . was demanded by dissidents for political reasons and acceded to by the Government for (other) political reasons."
Mr. Lidington: I completely agree with the hon. Gentleman. If that is happening, it suggests that the boundary between separation and segregation has already been crossed, which would be to the disadvantage of us all.
Mr. Paul Murphy: The hon. Member for South Antrim (David Burnside) cannot have heard my clarification of my point. I said that "negotiations" was not the appropriate word, and that, although discussions might be taking place, those are not the same as the sort of negotiations to which I assume that he is referring, such as those that might have taken place when segregation was operating at the Maze prison. That is not the case in this instance. Hon. Members must be aware that when the Steele recommendations came out, people across the board in Northern Ireland—including the Churches, the political parties and the community in Northern Ireland—agreed with separation but not with segregation.
Mr. Lidington: I am grateful to the Secretary of State for his reassurance, but that exchange shows how difficult it will be for the Government or for the officers and prison governors at the front line to ensure that the distinction between separation and segregation is maintained in practice. The Select Committee stated that it was
- "doubtful that the Government's decision to separate was wholly and simply about safety."
- "contrary to the balance of the facts and arguments presented to us".
Mr. Lidington: No one—least of all me—is going to impugn the hon. Gentleman's commitment over many years to democratic and inclusive politics in Northern Ireland, but on this issue we have to disagree. The risk that we now run is that we might, over time, concede control of those wings of Maghaberry prison to the paramilitary organisations, and that we will once again repeat the mistakes that were made at the Maze.
Lembit Öpik: I am listening to the hon. Gentleman's strongly held views with interest. If the Conservatives feel so strongly about this issue now, and are so
confident that they could do a different job if they were in government, why did they not do so in the 1980s and 1990s?
Mr. Lidington: If the hon. Gentleman looks back at the history of the period before either of us was a Member of this place, he will find that, during the 1980s and 1990s, the then Conservative Government had recognised the mistakes that had been made in relation to the original decision to permit segregation, and were working to phase it out—as eventually happened. I remind him that the criticisms that I have quoted from the Select Committee report were agreed unanimously by every member of that Committee, regardless of party.
Mr. McNamara: I cannot comprehend the hon. Gentleman's understanding of the situation at the end of the last Conservative Government, when the Maze—formerly Long Kesh—was completely segregated and no moves were being made to stop that. Also, it was his former right hon. Friend the late Viscount Whitelaw who, as Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, was the first to grant concessions on political status.
Mr. Lidington: There are few people in any political party who, looking back on the decisions taken in the 1970s, would believe that they helped the cause of peace and democratic politics in Northern Ireland. I am anxious that we should learn from that experience and not repeat those mistakes now or in future.
Lembit Öpik: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Lidington: No, the hon. Gentleman has already made one intervention, and I want to make some progress.
The problems that will face the Prison Service and Ministers are highlighted by the reports in the Northern Ireland media in the last few days. They involve threats of new dirty protests and hunger strikes, and tensions between Provisional IRA suspects and members of other republican terror groups being held on remand at Maghaberry.
Mr. Luke: Like the hon. Gentleman, I visited the prison and viewed the different accommodation improvements involved in the move to separation. Does he accept that the concern of the Select Committee's investigation was that the line now conceded should be held, and that the Government have given verbal guarantees that the line will be held? That is vital for the situation there.
Mr. Lidington: I agree that, Ministers having made that decision, it is vital to make every effort to maintain that line, as the hon. Gentleman urges. However, I fear that it will be difficult to maintain the line in practice, in the face of determined efforts by terrorist groups in the prison to test that boundary at every opportunity. The Select Committee, on which he sits, was right to conclude that the Government's decision was dangerous, especially for the public servants who will have to implement it and live with its consequences.
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