| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
Mr. Dodds: What does the hon. Gentleman say to the many people in Northern Ireland who are concerned that if devolution were to proceed under the Belfast agreement arrangements the person in charge of policing and justice could be inextricably linked to a
terrorist paramilitary organisation? How does that bolster confidence in justice and policing in Northern Ireland?
Mr. Mallon: I thank the hon. Gentleman for making that point, which brings me to my second broad point. Believe it or not, people within what would widely be called "the nationalist community" express concern that somebody from the Democratic Unionist party might end up as Minister for Justice. Believe it or not, some people who are on the DUP side of thinking express concern that one of the "others"—the "others" being the Ulster Unionist party—might end up in that post. One thing is sure; it will be one of us, and that person will have a more immediate relationship with the needs of the north of Ireland.
I know that the Secretary of State will forgive me for saying this, and it applies to any Secretary of State for Northern Ireland or, indeed, any Lord Chancellor: if we are ever to make a success of devolution, which means making a success of Northern Ireland, we must overcome these problems. The hon. Gentleman's point is valid: how does one hand over power in a devolutionary situation in which some participants are involved in paramilitarism? I honestly believe that one cannot hand over power in those circumstances.
Power must be handed over in a situation in which paramilitarism has ended and people have worked together for a period of time through devolution in other areas. In that case, devolution would be tried and tested and it would have been shown that, in the absence of paramilitarism and violence, the system—whatever it is—is workable and can be sustained. That is one of the harsh points that we must examine, because power cannot be handed over until that happens. That is all the more reason why I say to those who are involved in paramilitary activity—those in the republican movement and those in the loyalist organisations—that they are preventing the people of the north of Ireland from exercising the responsibility that they should be able to exercise in those crucially important roles. With their adherence to violence, they are standing in the way of the type of development that we are very capable of sustaining, whoever happens to be chosen to be the Minister responsible.
Those people who say that they are in the political process but who are at the same time connected to violence and paramilitarism should hang their heads in shame. The unfortunate people who are kneecapped or shot dead, or treated as many people have been treated, are not the only victims; one of the other victims is the political process that many of us have spent a long time creating. When I look—from the perspective of many years of involvement—at what those organisations have done to what was painstakingly created over 35 years, I question their alleged patriotism, their alleged interest in the country in which we live and their commitment to a purely political way forward.
I put those comments on record because it is incompatible to suggest that people can take responsibility for a justice and policing system at the same time as they have any relationship, contact or dealings with those who enforce their own strange form of policing. We talk about victims and I am glad the Secretary of State mentioned those people who serve on the policing partnership boards and who have been
attacked. Seven have been attacked recently, some of them members of my party. Tom McBride, for example, yesterday suffered a pipe bomb attack on his house. Two members of my party who are councillors in my constituency were actually threatened across the floor of the council chamber, in the presence of the media and officials. It was not a mild threat: it was a threat of violence towards them and their families. I am not going to take that from such people, and nobody should have to take that from them. Our system should not have to take that from them either. Whatever we—I mean all of us here—disagree about, we should agree that we cannot allow a system in which good people are daily and weekly sacrificed on the altar of the atavism of what is called—it is a misnomer—republicanism. In the same way, good people in the Unionist community have been sacrificed by loyalist paramilitaries. They killed 13 people last year and were involved in 145 shootings. Like the republican movement, the loyalist paramilitaries are involved in racketeering and they actually put a lady who was over 100 years old out of her house. The mind boggles when one considers the sum total of their acts, but that is what we have to deal with.We cannot deal with those problems from the security of the Benches here. If they are to be dealt with successfully, it will be when the political process reaches a point at which devolution is possible. I make a request of the Government—seriously and without a hint of cynicism—that they should not make this issue a bargaining point somewhere down the line. They should not allow the political process to reach a point at which the devolution of powers in the Bill becomes a price demanded by those who will not, at this stage, abide by the rules of democracy. I make that point because I have seen that happen too often, and anybody who values the political process cannot tolerate it.
We use the term "peace process" glibly these days, but as Spinoza reminds us, peace is not just an absence of war but an attitude of mind—a disposition towards benevolence, confidence and justice. It is that justice that must be part of peace, part of this Bill and part of devolution, in a way that proves and sustains the integrity of what the Bill will do.
I make those broad points because we must put the Bill in context. However, I shall move on to the Bill itself. This is the fifth time in five years that we have considered primary legislation on policing and justice.
Lady Hermon: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, who is making a compelling speech, but would he reflect on the happy hours that we spent in Committee on the Justice (Northern Ireland) Act 2002? He tabled amendments, which the Government accepted, to the effect that the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister should act jointly. Bearing in mind what the hon. Gentleman has just said about the difficulty and the slow pace of the devolution of justice and policing, does he now regret that that phrase was written into that Act so often? It will put off the devolution of justice and policing for a long time to come.
Mr. Mallon: I thank that hon. Lady for that point, but I do not regret my actions. Indeed, one of the criticisms I shall make later is that the commitment on the roles of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister—whoever
they may be—has been diluted from what was agreed at Hillsborough. It is essential that the requirement for the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to act jointly should be in pole position, because without it there would be no devolution—only the giving of some powers by the Government here to an Administration in the north of Ireland, and that could appear disparaging.As I was saying, the Bill is the fifth piece of legislation on policing and justice—we have had three on policing and two on criminal justice issues.
Mr. Donaldson: Could the hon. Gentleman elaborate on the agreement at Hillsborough? I am not clear to which agreement he refers. Who agreed to the proposal that he mentions?
Mr. Mallon: It was agreed between the two Governments and subsequently became known as the joint declaration. Like the hon. Gentleman, I was not present at Hillsborough, so I cannot say in what context it was agreed, but when two sovereign Governments write such an agreement in a joint declaration that they will use as a cornerstone for future legislation, one expects that they will tell the truth. I am prepared to accept that—and I would recommend it to the hon. Gentleman, too.
I fully accept that most of these points derive from what was not dealt with in the previous primary legislation and had to be squeezed out of the Government at Hillsborough. The Secretary of State put it more gently, but that is the reality. I was concerned about the reference to Sinn Fein, because its reasons were nothing to do with the quality of legislation. Our reason was to get the legislation in accord with the recommendations of the review. There is a huge difference, and that is why we are considering this legislation, just as we had to consider policing, because an untold mess was made of it for the wrong reasons. Patten was diluted, and we had to come again to the issue. The criminal justice review was diluted, and we have had to come again today to the issue.
Mr. Donaldson: The hon. Gentleman will be familiar with the concept of nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. Since when was it agreed that the joint declaration would be the cornerstone of any legislation in this House?
Mr. Mallon: It was agreed by the representatives of the British Government at Hillsborough. It is in the joint declaration. I recommend to the hon. Gentleman that he reads the declaration made by the two Governments.
Mr. Donaldson: We were not a party to that.
Mr. Mallon: I was not there. I cannot say whether your party agreed to it. [Interruption.] I beg your pardon—your ex-party.
The reality is that the two Governments made an agreement that brought what was previously legislated into line with the criminal justice review. Now let us get on with it and get it right. I welcome the legislation, which is very important for a number of reasons.
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |