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Mr. Trimble: The hon. Gentleman says that the Bill is to bring the Justice (Northern Ireland) Act 2002 into
line with the criminal justice review. Will he consider the question of the judicial appointments commission, and in particular the provision in paragraph 6.102 of the review, which makes it absolutely clear that the overriding reason for having the commission is the prospect of devolution, so the 2002 Act is on this point entirely in accordance with the review, but the Bill is not?
Mr. Mallon: I take the right hon. Gentleman's point, and of course he can stress that when he makes his contribution, but now I want to describe three broad areas in which I am very much in favour of the Bill.
The Bill imposes a duty to ensure that the judiciary reflects the community. I am not talking about good judges or bad judges. There is no implication that, because a person is a Catholic, a Protestant, a Unionist, a nationalist, DUP, SDLP or whatever, they are any better or worse as a judge. I am saying that it is essential, especially in a divided community, that the whole business of criminal justice is not the preserve of the lawyers—it is much too serious to leave it simply to the lawyers, much as I respect them.
Some of the people I knew over the years who became judges—people I was very friendly with—were killed, by the same organisation that I was talking about earlier. I can think of four. Some who became judges were previously Unionist Ministers and Attorneys-General, and were excellent judges, so I make no point about that, but I do want to see a judiciary that reflects the wider society and does not come from a religious, academic or social stratum that excludes others. How many judges came from outside the grammar school system in Northern Ireland? I bet if we looked it up—I confess immediately that I have not—we would not find one. Nor would we find representatives of the ethnic communities. Nor are there any ladies—there are no women, I believe, and if there are they are certainly hiding their light under a bushel. There is a whole wide concept of making the judiciary reflective of the community that is not tied into political or religious views. It is much wider and more important than that.
The Bill imposes a duty on criminal justice agencies to have regard to international human rights standards. I think that the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) will want to come in on that point—no, thankfully, she has not made the point that she was about to make, because I do not have the answer, but I will have it at a certain point. Perhaps I could do a Secretary of State for now.
The third area to which I draw attention is the position of the Director of Public Prosecutions. The fact that the Bill deals with that, too, is welcome. All three matters should have been dealt with in the original legislation, as the criminal justice review required, but for long-standing reasons they were not.
Lady Hermon: The hon. Gentleman will remember that the code for prosecutors is already legislated for in the 2002 Act. The international guidance is already on the statute book, so I am intrigued as to what further international guidance would be relevant to the criminal justice system.
Mr. Mallon: The hon. Lady will have to wait for the Minister's winding-up speech or the Committee stage to get a definitive reply to that.
I want to cover two further crucial points. The commitment made by the two Governments at Hillsborough, in line with the review, is that there would be "a requirement" on the DPP
- "to refer to the Police Ombudsman cases of alleged police misconduct discovered in his casework"
Why does this matter? It is crucial, so I will give an example, because it is a vital protection for the process of law and for the community. In 1991, William Stobie was charged with the possession of weapons. On being charged, he threatened to reveal that he had warned the police that the UDA was going to murder someone, and had told them where the weapon that was to be used was. The police made no move. Pat Finucane was shot dead with that weapon in his own house, on a Sunday, in front of his family. Once Stobie had threatened to reveal all, what happened? Charges against him were dropped by the then DPP. Of course, there was no police ombudsman at the time, but no explanation was ever given, and a cloud has hung over the DPP's office ever since. Had the law then been as we want it to be, and as it should have been, the DPP would have had to refer Stobie's allegation for independent investigation—by whomsoever. That is why this issue matters, and it could not matter more. Indeed, had that law been in place, we might—might—have saved lives and avoided some of the issues referred to in Judge Cory's report.
The Government gave another simple commitment: that in the respect of the appointment of senior judges, the First Minister and Deputy First Minister
- "will make recommendations to the Prime Minister, who in turn will recommend appointments on this basis."
I finish with a broad point about the Cory report. As my hon. Friend the Member for Hull, North (Mr. McNamara) and I have said in the House on a number of occasions, how can we expect and demand of others that they live up to what is required of them in the agreement—requirements to which they are committed—when, in effect, the Government have yet to fulfil their responsibilities as outlined at Weston Park? I was there, and I have the piece of paper on which the Prime Minister gave the following absolute commitment:
- "In the event that a public inquiry is recommended in any case, the Government will implement that recommendation."
I feel deeply about this legislation. In terms of those who are not allowing others in the community to move the political process forward, I feel deeply that that has got to end. Unless we start to understand the fears and apprehensions in the minds of others—be they Unionist minds, Democratic Unionist party minds, republican minds or nationalist minds—we will not get to the heart of this problem. The awfulness of what the paramilitary groups are doing is preventing people from understanding the problems, in terms of justice and policing, of those who will be their partners in a devolutionary situation. The paramilitaries are again killing the disposition towards benevolence and confidence that can deliver justice. To the enormity of the crimes that the paramilitaries have committed over the years, we can add that of preventing the good people in the north of Ireland from taking control of matters that are crucially important to their lives, so that the atavistic requirements of those paramilitary groups can be served before the needs of others.
2.45 pm
Mr. Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): In introducing the Bill this afternoon, the Secretary of State properly reminded us of the progress that has been made in Northern Ireland in the past six years. We on this side of the water have always regarded that as an exercise in Northern Ireland's catching up with developments in Great Britain. Ironically, after the shenanigans in the other place on Monday night, we have the prospect of Northern Ireland taking the lead, with England and Wales being left to follow.
Liberal Democrats are pleased to give the Bill a broad welcome. We have already made our attitude to it clear in the other place, and the Minister will be aware that we are not uncritical of it. Improvements have been made in the course of discussions in the other place, and notwithstanding the Secretary of State's comments about some of those changes, we hope that the Government will think carefully before they seek to bulldoze the amendments away, and that they may be preserved. There is still scope for improving the Bill, and we Liberal Democrats will play our role in that. If I have any criticism, it is that it is something of a hotch-potch. Bills that pull in little bits in respect of bail, youth justice and courts are slightly unhelpful, but we are where we are and we have what we have.
I should make it clear at the outset that we will not support the Conservatives' reasoned amendment. If one regards the Bill as part of a process and considers it in its full political context, it is somewhat perplexing that they
should table a reasoned amendment in this particular form. I read with great care the reasoned points made by Lord Glentoran in the other place on Second Reading on 17 December. He made it clear, in a fairly measured way, that there are certain aspects of the Bill with which he does not agree. There was no hint, however, that a reasoned amendment such as this would be tabled in this place, and I am afraid that the only conclusion that I can draw is that we are now dealing with matters such as judicial appointments in a slightly more febrile atmosphere than existed on 16 December, when their lordships received the Bill for consideration on Second Reading.The tabling of today's reasoned amendment perhaps has more to do with what happened in the other place on Monday night than with anything in the present Bill. I make these comments with some hesitation, because this situation is particularly regrettable. The Bill does not exist in isolation—it is part of a process and has emerged from the criminal justice review and last year's joint declaration. We have supported that process, and the Conservatives previously supported it, adopting a non-partisan approach.
When the hon. Member for Grantham and Stamford (Mr. Davies) was calling the shots, that approach changed. I had hoped that with the appointment of the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Lidington) we might see some progress in the other direction. Indeed, for some time I had considerable confidence that that would happen. Unfortunately, however, the hon. Gentleman seems to have lost sight—or perhaps others pulling his strings have lost sight—of the bigger picture of which the Bill is part, and accordingly we have the amendment, which the Liberal Democrats cannot support.
I wish to deal first with the question of the independent commission on judicial appointments. The right hon. Member for Upper Bann (Mr. Trimble) effectively asked the Secretary of State for a report-back on how the system is working north of the border, where we have had an independent appointments body for about three years. I must be honest and say that I do not follow these matters with quite the same interest as I did previously, but my general impression is that it is working exceptionally well. Certainly when we consider the appointments that have been made, both to the College of Justice and to the shrieval bench north of the border, we do not recognise any of the hares set running in the speeches of the hon. Member for Aylesbury and others in the other place about the creation of an independent commission.
We have a system to which the public can look with a degree of confidence. It can be seen that one does not become a senator of the College of Justice or a sheriff north of the border simply because of the school one went to, who one shared a flat with at university, who one happened to be in practice with, whose stables one was part of or any of the other matters about which suspicions always lurked in the past when the system was such that names emerged from a fog at the centre of which was the Lord Advocate.
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