| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
Mr. Clifton-Brown: Whatever the hon. Gentleman may have heard sotto voce, I do not recall and I do not believe that I told my hon. Friend to move on. I would not dare give him such an instruction.
Mr. Pound: Did you say, "Move on"?
Mr. Carmichael: If the hon. Member for Cotswold tells us that he did not tell his hon. Friend to "move on", he may have just uttered the words at random for whatever reason.
Lembit Öpik: Does my hon. Friend agree that if the hon. Member for Cotswold (Mr. Clifton-Brown) did not advise his hon. Friend to move on, he should have done? As I recall, the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Lidington) claimed—amazingly, in my view—that the Conservative Government had worked to remove segregation. Does my hon. Friend recall that they did not do a thing to stop segregation? In fact, segregation was powerfully established by 1997, so it is neither reasonable nor plausible for Conservative Members to rewrite history on such a core issue.
Mr. Carmichael: I thank my hon. Friend, whose recollection of events more accurately mirrors my own, for his intervention—and I see other hon. Members who have a longer pedigree than me on that matter also nodding in agreement. Now that my hon. Friend has put the record straight, we might just leave it and move on, but my noble Friends in the other place expressed a concern about ensuring that the matter of separation should be tied to individual prisoners, rather than on the basis of classification. If classes of prisoners are to be separated, it is difficult to see the distinction between that and segregation.
We were pleased to support Lord Hylton's amendment—
Mr. John Taylor: I would like to correct a misapprehension—inadvertent, I am sure—on the part of the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik), who said that Conservative Governments had done nothing about segregation in Northern Ireland. I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman was a Member of the House at the time, but I remember, because I was the Whip, the Fair Employment (Northern Ireland) Act 1989, with its quotas and timetables for the workplace. I was here; I am not imagining the Committee stage of a long Bill. The Act was difficult to get through, but we did it.
Mr. Carmichael: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman did not have the benefit of hearing his hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury and the exchanges that punctuated his speech, because I do not think that the point that he is making is about segregation within prisons, which was the point at issue. If he wishes to explain his point at greater length, no doubt he can catch your eye later, Madam Deputy Speaker, but I am mindful that others want to speak, and I want to bring my remarks to a conclusion.
As I was saying, the Liberal Democrats in the other place were pleased to support an amendment tabled by Lord Hylton, the chair of the Northern Ireland Association for the Care and Resettlement of Offenders, which was designed to tighten the clause by wording it as follows:
- "If it appears to the Secretary of State that, because of his serious misconduct, or, with his consent, for his own protection"
Mr. Andrew Hunter (Basingstoke) (Ind Con) rose—
Mr. Carmichael: I am sorry, but I really do want to bring my remarks to a close. I have been fairly generous in giving way to hon. Members.
There are several gems in the Bill. The provisions on bail seem entirely sensible, as does the power for arrest without warrant for driving while disqualified. On the whole, the Liberal Democrats are pleased to support the Bill; we think that it is an important contribution to a process of which we are generally supportive. We shall have more to say at a later stage, but today we are content to support the Government.
3.12 pm
Mr. Kevin McNamara (Hull, North) (Lab): Before I start on the main part of my speech, I should like to refer to some of the remarks that have been made in the debate, especially by the hon. Member for Solihull (Mr. Taylor), in the context of the attitude of Conservative Front Benchers to the Bill. With the Fair Employment (Northern Ireland) Bill, the whole idea was that merit alone would matter. For any job or job application, nothing but merit would count.
Mr. Trimble: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. McNamara: May I finish making my point? Then I shall certainly give way.
I sat through most of the proceedings on that Bill, and I do not remember it being such a tremendous fight for the then Government to get it through. As I recall, it was given a very fair wind by the then opposition, to such an extent that the Government accepted many of our amendments, and we helped the Bill along.
Mr. Trimble: I was most impressed listening to the hon. Gentleman emphasising the idea that in employment, merit should be all. When did he change his mind?
Mr. McNamara: I have not changed my mind; I wanted affirmative action programmes. I was simply saying that the Government at the time said that it was all merit, merit, merit—yet now the Conservatives are decrying that idea.
The joint declaration was part of the tortuous negotiations that have followed the Good Friday agreement. That itself reflected a compromise resulting from political negotiations between the parties, with the assistance of the British and Irish Governments—a process supported by the United States, the institutions of the European Union, non-governmental organisations, Churches, trade unions and an array of state and non-state bodies.
In the course of those negotiations, when it was felt that matters required further thought and consideration for the sake of building trust and confidence in the process, the task was outsourced. It was taken on by a diversity of individuals forming independent commissions of unimpeachable integrity. Membership of those bodies required expertise and vision to take the project through, plus courage and, some might say, unimaginable perseverance.
In discussing the delivery of criminal justice in Northern Ireland, we must pay tribute to the work of the Patten commission on policing, and to the criminal justice review team, which together supplied the template for a system that would be an international model for defending and promoting respect for human rights and upholding the rule of law.
One offshoot of that was the establishment of the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland. Mrs. Nuala O'Loan, who is now in that office, demonstrated at an international conference in Belfast last November that that Northern Ireland institution is now regarded throughout the world as a model, an exemplar and a leader in civilian oversight of the police and police accountability.
When they were fulfilling their responsibility to introduce legislation on policing, the Government were warned that the drafts did not meet the requirements of the Good Friday agreement or of the Patten commission. When that first happened, we were laughed out of court, but their first policing Bill emasculated the Patten report, and three years later, Ministers were back with a second Bill to redress the shortcomings of the first. On criminal justice, Ministers were again warned that the Justice (Northern Ireland) Bill, which became the 2002 Act, did not meet all the expectations. Two years later, we are back again with another Bill.
My noble Friend Baroness Amos has referred to that as a matter of steady evolutionary progress, a journey of reform and modernisation. It was not; it was three years of wasted opportunities. Each time a Government fail to meet their commitments or modify them, or seem to be swaying one way or the other, they undermine trust and confidence in the process as a whole. That is the Government's share of responsibility for the crisis in which the process now finds itself.
I welcome the successful conclusion to the negotiations at Weston Park and the joint declaration by the British and Irish Governments published subsequently. In so far as the Bill introduces measures set out in the declaration, it is to be welcomed, and I do welcome a great deal of it. However, I feel that it does not go far enough.
On accountability, I do not feel that there is sufficient transparency in the appointment or the exercise of the responsibilities of the Director of Public Prosecutions. As for the composition, I do not feel that the systems in place are sufficiently robust to ensure that the criminal justice system reflects, and is seen to reflect at all levels, the community that it serves. On ethos, I do not feel that sufficient progress has been made in transforming the image, symbols and traditional practices of the criminal justice system to create what Patten looked for—a sense of shared ownership of the system across the divided community.
Those issues still have to be addressed if we are to succeed in completing the process of devolution—and I want that to succeed. I welcome the Government's decision to bring forward the introduction of the judicial appointments commission in advance of the devolution of justice powers. In the light of past legislation that failed to meet expectations, I believe that it is important to put our commitment to openness, transparency and accountability beyond doubt. By putting it in statute, we underline the Government's perseverance and determination to see that devolution is returned on the principles of the Good Friday agreement.
I also welcome the proposal for a programme of action to focus on equality issues that affect judicial appointments and commitments to establish a consultative forum. I hope that my right hon. Friend the Minister of State can assure me that the forum will also include members of non-governmental organisations and community support groups.
Of course, not every aspect of change requires primary legislation. I am pleased that the Government have been persuaded of the need for a justice oversight commissioner. That was the result of pressure from colleagues in the Social Democratic and Labour party and on the Labour Benches. That pressure has worked, to a limited degree.
Clause 5 deals with the duty of the Director of Public Prosecutions and provides that matters of police malpractice should be referred to the ombudsman. However, as I pointed out in an intervention on my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, the clause does not go as far as was promised in the joint declaration. The Police (Northern Ireland) Act 1998 leaves the DPP with a discretion in such matters. As my hon. Friend the Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon) noted, if examples of police malpractice had been passed directly to someone similar to the proposed new ombudsman, some of the terrible things that have happened in Northern Ireland might have been avoided.
Clause 5 confers excessive discretion on the DPP to decide whether a matter must be referred to the ombudsman. The review recommended that
- "a duty be placed on the prosecutor to ensure that any allegations of malpractice by the police are fully investigated."
- "Guidance for criminal justice organisations on human rights standards".
In many respects, our system can bear examination according to the best standards in human rights. I hope that such an examination is carried out properly. That is why I do not understand why the Government say that it will be for Attorney-General for Northern Ireland to issue guidance to the criminal justice agencies on the exercise of their functions in a manner consistent with relevant international standards. It is a useful proposal, but I do not understand why the wording used is considered better than a requirement to have "due regard" for a list of relevant standards, which could be included as a schedule to the Bill. Providing that the agencies must comply with a list issued by the Attorney-General is not as full a provision as the joint declaration led people to expect.
Clause 7(8) exempts the prosecution service from having any regard to human rights guidance issued by the Attorney-General for Northern Ireland where it would be inconsistent with the code of practice issued under section 37 of the Justice (Northern Ireland) Act 2002. Given that section 37 is meant to meet those
standards, I do not understand why the exemption is proposed. I hope that my right hon. Friend the Minister of State will explain why the code of practice for the prosecution service should be singled out in that way, or why it should be permitted to be inconsistent with guidance on international human rights standards issued by the Attorney-General.I have already complimented the Government on appointing the justice oversight commissioner, but I want to turn to another matter that arises by way of background to the Bill. In his first report of December 2003, Lord Clyde noted that there appeared to be significant delays in implementing recommendations 5 and 6 of the criminal justice review on equity monitoring.
Equity monitoring is an extremely important aspect of criminal justice reform in Northern Ireland and crucial to building confidence in the system. Both the criminal justice review implementation plans confer lead responsibilities for equity monitoring on the criminal justice board, but I hope that the Minister of State will clarify the matter when he winds up. Lord Clyde states in his report that the board intends to publish the first results on equity monitoring only in 2008–09—an enormous length of time after the board's establishment. The matter requires detailed explanation.
In the languages of the review, equity monitoring consists of
- "effective equity monitoring of the workforce and of job applicants"
- "monitoring, with a view to recording, any potential differential treatment of people who pass through the criminal justice process or are affected by it."
I cannot understand either why the board should be treated in that way, when all other private and public employers have a responsibility to produce their plans for equity monitoring. In such a sensitive area, it is wrong for there to be so long a delay. Lord Clyde provides a religious breakdown of the criminal justice division of the Northern Ireland Office as it was in 2002, but it seems that the same is not possible for the board.
With regard to the criminal justice division, when will the figures for 2003 be available? We are also entitled to ask for publication of dates and statistics for all the other criminal justice agencies, such as the public prosecution service.
Clause 4 deals with the appointments of the Lord Chief Justice and the Lords Justices of Appeal. My hon. Friend the Member for Newry and Armagh has already raised the matter, and I do not want to waste the House's time, but the updated implementation plan stated that the Prime Minister would make the appointments
- "based on the recommendations of the First and Deputy First Minister".
I welcome much that is in the Bill and trust that much more will be improved in Committee. It is regrettable that, once again, the Government, having set off with good intentions, succumbed to temptation along the way, left the true path and had to be dragged back by the logic of the Good Friday agreement and of what was accepted in the various undertakings that they gave, which were encompassed at Weston Park and in the implementation plan. I hope that this will be the last time that the Government have to come back to the House with further amendments to legislation that they originally said was the finest example of the implementation of the Good Friday agreement.
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |