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Mr. Luke: Well, that is what has been put in print, and I have also read it in evidence. Certain members of the
community in Northern Ireland feel that they were born with a second-class birthright, depending on which side of the peace wall they were born. We cannot allow that situation to go on. In saying that, I am in no way calling into question the integrity and professional competence of those who are called to serve in the justice system of Northern Ireland. However, for a system of justice to be fully accepted by all in the community that it is set up to serve and safeguard—
Mr. Donaldson: If the justice system in Northern Ireland is so biased and unfair, will the hon. Gentleman explain why, at the height of the troubles, there were as many loyalist paramilitaries as republican paramilitaries being convicted and put in prison? I know that, because those prisons were in my constituency. If the system is not fair, how on earth did all those loyalist paramilitaries end up being convicted?
Mr. Luke: Obviously, the system has functioned. However, there is still a perception that there is insufficient cross-community confidence in the fairness of the current system—I shall refer later to the document published last February by the SDLP in that regard—and that is why the Bill is trying to redress the balance.
Mr. Donaldson: Where is the evidence?
Mr. Luke: I shall carry on, but I shall be happy to give way if the hon. Gentleman has any other points to make on this matter.
For the system to be seen to be fair and balanced, there has to be a representative element in ensuring that the areas of interest over which the competence of the legal system in Northern Ireland holds sway are fully served. I firmly believe that the Bill promotes that purpose, specifically in the creation of a judicial appointments commission, whose members will reflect the broad spectrum of interests in the community. That, in turn, will ensure that, in future, the judiciary will better reflect Northern Ireland's society. The commission will go a long way towards creating a system of justice that has the confidence of all the people of Northern Ireland—and all the communities that have to coexist there—and towards ensuring a peaceful and safe society there.
Mr. Hunter: I am having a little trouble following the hon. Gentleman's argument. I know of the perception, which I reject, that the Royal Ulster Constabulary was not an open and fair organisation, but I am searching my memory for any perception in the past 30 to 40 years that the judiciary was biased. The Bill is based on that assumption, which the hon. Gentleman has asserted. We are entitled to ask him for the evidence on which he bases that view.
Mr. Luke: There is a belief across community boundaries that the judiciary is not representative in its make-up. It is not balanced as regards sex or ethnic minorities, but there is also a feeling that it was biased in favour of one community. That is my perception after speaking to people in Northern Ireland and from my research.
Mr. Donaldson: Does the hon. Gentleman know the religion of the new Lord Chief Justice of Northern
Ireland? Does he know the religious balance of the Court of Appeal in Northern Ireland? There is no evidence to support the theory that he expounds. Only the terrorists and paramilitaries, who did not recognise the justice system in the first place, have argued against it. Of course, they have their unique system of justice.
Mr. Luke: I do not speak on behalf of terrorists. I am expressing what I believe to be a widely held perception in specific sections of the community in Northern Ireland. The hon. Gentleman may represent one section of the community but he must accept that other members will hold other views.
Mr. Mallon: Does my hon. Friend agree that the criminal justice review was largely written by people who are involved in the legal process? They knew at first hand the pulse in the legal profession. Of course, others apart from lawyers contributed to writing it, but lawyers pinpointed the deficiency, prepared the necessary changes and presented them to Parliament to be incorporated in legislation, which we are now considering. Not a political party but a cross-section of the community in the north of Ireland saw the need for change.
Mr. Luke: My hon. Friend is right.
Let me consider the contribution of the hon. Member for Belfast, North (Mr. Dodds), who questioned the need for new legislation. He set out a series of tests for the way in which we should measure the Bill. The crucial test, which I support, is whether the Bill will enhance the acceptance of the criminal justice system in the Province. I firmly believe that the answer is yes. On the basis of the hon. Gentleman's test, the measure is needed. His negative approach to the proposals has no merit and I hope that he will reconsider his opposition to the Bill and vote with the Government.
I agree with the points in the SDLP's policy paper, "Delivering a New Beginning for Criminal Justice", which was published in February last year. I have read all parties' positions on the matter. The SDLP document emphasises that there is insufficient cross-community confidence in the fairness of the current system of justice in Northern Ireland. The hon. Member for Belfast, North may deny that. Indeed, that appears to be his argument, but those who are elected to represent a whole community have to take cognisance of the views of other members of it. Legislators cannot hide and refuse to accept responsibility for legislating fairly across the community divide.
The comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon) were moving and emotive. I believe that he tackled the issues and dealt with trying to isolate parties that continue to have links with paramilitary organisations, which try to steer the political process, with perverse effects. He also made the case for rational and moderate debate to ensure that the peace-loving community—the majority of people in Northern Ireland—has the benefit of a fair justice system.
Opposition to the Bill denies that there is a problem and ignores the fears and uneasiness of many people about the impartiality and probity of a system that one could hope to access as a right as a citizen in the
Province. That fear lingers not only among those who have the most fundamentalist, anti-British, republican views but, I am led to believe, among many well meaning, moderate, respectable and well respected holders of milder nationalist views.On Second Reading in the other place on 16 December, Baroness Amos made a telling comment when she said:
- "All justice systems must continue to evolve. They cannot be allowed to sit still and to ossify or they will cease to meet the needs of modern society. As well as being effective, efficient and fair, they must reflect the community they serve and be prepared to change as society changes."—[Official Report, House of Lords, 16 December 2003; Vol. 655, c. 1091.]
Both loyalists and nationalists made clear their welcome for the climate created by the peace process. They were embracing change. Many of those in north Belfast were involved in a campaign to stop antisocial behaviour, and would be travelling to Edinburgh the following day to share their experiences with members of other councils throughout the United Kingdom. It was evident that those on both sides of the peace wall to whom we spoke were involved not just in cross-UK dialogue, but in cross-community dialogue. All were clearly committed to working towards a peaceful, democratic society. I believe that the Bill is another step along that road. To deny that change is occurring is perverse; indeed, such a move is utterly doomed. It is a sad indictment of the negative effect that petty party politics can have on peaceful progress.
The Bill recognises the basic fact that human rights have a role to play in the administration of justice. It places a duty on Northern Ireland justice agencies to take account of the way in which they handle human rights. It constitutes a response to the conclusions of the criminal justice review, which stresses that human rights and human dignity—the dignity of individuals as human beings—should be at the core of our consideration of the way in which criminal justice operates, both in the Province and in this part of the UK. The Government have rightly highlighted awareness of human rights as a key element in the operation of criminal justice organisations. They want to ensure that in future such organisations pay due regard to guidance and directives on relevant international standards.
A matter that I have already raised—as have many other Members, and the Northern Ireland Affairs Select Committee—is the Bill's proposal to allow the transfer of military prisoners from Northern Ireland to mainland penal institutions. That has featured largely in the Scottish media this week. A Sewel motion has been tabled in the Scottish Parliament to enable the Scottish
end of the transfer to go ahead if necessary. I—and, I think, the Committee—accept the reasoning behind the proposal in the Bill, which flows from recommendations in the Steele report on the separation, as opposed to segregation, of political prisoners in Northern Ireland. I think that such powers, if they were ever used, could have adverse effects.Only at a late stage in the Select Committee's inquiry into the separation of paramilitary prisoners at HMP Maghaberry—in fact, in response to a question that I put to the Minister responsible for justice and security on 10 December—was its attention drawn to the possibility of the transfer of prisoners from Maghaberry to the mainland as a sanction of last resort.
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