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Mr. Mallon: I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. He raises a valid point—transportation has been part of the folk memory of the people of the island of Ireland for centuries. The transportation used to be to Van Diemen's Land; now it is to Scotland or parts of England. The Government should be wary; that folk memory was expressed at Twickenham every five minutes last Saturday by the singing of "Fields of Athenry", which is based on transportation. I have not discussed the population of Van Diemen's Land, Australia, but the matter should be watched carefully because it hits what is probably the rawest nerve in Irish life.
Mr. Luke: Being a student of Irish history, I take serious note of that intervention. In Dundee, we are very happy about the transportation of many Irish people to the city, and especially to the universities, over a long period of time. My family has connections with the Province, and its members have moved backwards and forwards in the linen trade over the past 200 years. The word "transportation" has connotations that may apply to prisoners if they are ever moved from prisons in Northern Ireland to prisons on the mainland.
It is right to restate the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee's response to the point, which is outlined on page 28 of its report. It states:
- "We believe that the proposal to transfer prisoners to other jurisdictions as a sanction of last resort is very dangerous and could easily be manipulated by the paramilitaries in their campaign to undermine the Northern Ireland Prison Service and, ultimately, the British Government. We caution against its use in the strongest possible terms."
Prisoner transfers were discussed in the early stages of the Steele review, when the number of paramilitary prisoners was fairly low. In the move towards separation and, I believe, segregation, many ordinary, decent criminals—as they are called in prisons—have been pressured into claiming paramilitary status, so the number of paramilitary prisoners has grown significantly. The proposed increase from 50 to 200 prisoners could cause real problems given the activities that we saw in Maghaberry prison last year, where separation was forced on the authorities because of dirty protests and roof top protests. If such protests return,
we may be discussing not one or two prisoners but dozens. That political tool could be used to good effect by paramilitaries.The hon. Member for South Down (Mr. McGrady) was present for the earlier part of the debate but has had to go. In the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee on 10 December, he said:
- "To put this into the political context rather than the prison regime context, if that happens, if you transport paramilitaries from Northern Ireland to Scotland or England or Wales, you will be creating an enormous political weapon that will be exploited by the paramilitaries."
In conclusion, the Bill completes the implementation of the criminal justice review, which is an important part of the Good Friday agreement, and will help to deliver the fair, modern and balanced justice system that the people of Northern Ireland truly deserve. In introducing the Second Reading of the Bill in the other place, Baroness Amos said:
- "The Bill will provide for a justice system that is more transparent, open and accountable; a justice system that will instil even greater levels of confidence in all parts of the community."—[Official Report, House of Lords, 16 December 2003; Vol. 655, c. 1095.]
4.35 pm
Mr. David Trimble (Upper Bann) (UUP): I am sure that the hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. Luke) means well, and he has clearly made efforts to inform himself. I hope that he continues to do so, and I look forward to a time when his contributions display a greater understanding of and judgment on the matters to which he refers.
The Bill is a modest measure compared with the Justice (Northern Ireland) Act 2002. It is quite short, but it is set in a context that means that our debate today has ranged over several matters. In view of the lateness of the hour—although few Members remain to contribute—I do not intend to cover all the issues that have been mentioned. However, I wish to make a couple of general points, two of which in particular relate to the contribution from the hon. Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon). I have a compliment for him, as well as something of a criticism.
The compliment refers to the comments that he made when he was reflecting on the need for people visibly to give up paramilitarism and violence. He pointed out that it was entirely inconsistent with the devolution of responsibility for justice matters for people still to be involved in paramilitary organisations. I recall comments that the hon. Gentleman has made in other debates on the subject in which he referred to the need
for it to be clear that institutions are robust enough—in terms of durability and the integrity of those who will operate them—to deal with the real stresses and strains that would result from the devolution of such matters. It would be the final sign that the arrangements are well bedded in and are durable enough. It flows from that that we are not at present in that position. I shall come back to that point.I was less than happy with the hon. Gentleman's comments in response to a point made by my hon. Friend the Member for South Antrim (David Burnside) when he was talking about the discriminatory arrangements for the recruitment of police. I think that the hon. Gentleman asked whether a 50-50 split was not equality. That comment may have been made by the hon. Gentleman without reflection and instinctively, but it betrays an approach that is fundamentally wrong. It is a common mistake on the issue, and I have heard it made even by those involved in equality issues in their professional lives.
The assumption underlying the question of whether 50-50 is not equality is that by equality we mean an equal outcome for people. It implies that the two "communities" in Northern Ireland should be treated as if they were two equal entities and that the treatment of them should be equal. However, that is not equality as contained in the Belfast agreement or in the Northern Ireland Act 1998. It is not what the Equality Commission is charged with doing and it is not what human rights instruments mean when they talk of equality. In all those cases, the reference to equality is to equality of opportunity, and the need for each individual to be treated fairly and equally. There is no basis for approaching the issue as if we were dealing with group rights, with groups having to be treated equally. Such an approach would mean treating individuals oppressively and in a discriminatory way.
Mr. Mallon: The reality is that the 50-50 system was introduced to redress an imbalance in the police service personnel. Members of my party and I have been told many times that we must encourage people to join the police. The right hon. Gentleman's point has some validity, but it falls down because the arrangement is there on a pro tem basis, until the imbalance is redressed. He and everyone else want it to be redressed, but when that starts to happen, the complaints pour in.
Mr. Trimble: The hon. Gentleman referred to three things there: to an imbalance that needs to be redressed; to comments made urging him and his political colleagues to encourage people to join; and to the temporary nature of the arrangements. One must bear it in mind that, even at the height of the affirmative action programmes in the United States—and that is a long time ago now—they were applied only when there was some element of wrongdoing or fault. To suggest that the admitted imbalance in police numbers in Northern Ireland arose as a result of wrongdoing or deliberate discrimination is quite wrong.
Mr. Mallon: I did not suggest that.
Mr. Trimble: No, but I have to make the point because when some people hear a reference to imbalance they assume that there is some element of fault. If there
is fault in relation to the imbalance, it lies with those who through various means discouraged people from applying. I think the hon. Gentleman knows what I am referring to. The interesting thing about his comments about being urged to encourage people to join, and the irony of the whole matter, is that the target group from which we would want to recruit police officers—persons aged around 18 to 25—is, roughly speaking, evenly balanced between Protestant and Catholic, so that if there was equal participation, there would be something akin to 50-50 recruitment, operating on a purely merit basis.The key is not compulsion and legalised discrimination but encouraging equal participation, and already significant steps have been taken in that direction. The hon. Gentleman must bear it in mind that with the legalised discrimination that is currently in place individuals are left with a strong sense of injustice. It is not as if we are talking about a handful of people whose interests can be overlooked for the greater public good—although I would not advance that principle in any event—because the number of those who have suffered a personal injustice is getting into four figures, and that builds up a significant body of resentment in the community and has other ill effects that the hon. Gentleman should also bear in mind: it means that those who benefit from this injustice come into the service with a stigma that will be with them all their days, of having got there through special assistance and being in some respect second-class.
Many of those people are not second-class, but because of the legislation that the hon. Gentleman has promoted, people whose interests he would wish to advance will carry that stigma throughout their career. He and others who continue to defend this approach should bear in mind not only the injustice done to those who fail to be appointed but the stigma that they impose on those who gain appointment through these means, especially as it is all unnecessary given the existing structures. I have dwelt on this issue longer than I intended because of the quality of the response from the hon. Member for Newry and Armagh.
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