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Mr. Pound: The very first member of the RUC to be killed in the troubles—or certainly one of the first—and if not the last, almost one of the last to be killed, were both Roman Catholics. Catholics did join the RUC, although I entirely accept that there were those who put pressure on them not to do so. One reason why that happened was the dislocation between the community and the RUC. I shall not go into the "Oranges in uniform" slurs that were perpetuated for many years because there were wrong—and a thing of the past from which we may move on. However, no one in the Chamber can remotely deny that large sections of nationalists, republicans and Catholics in Northern Ireland were reluctant to join the RUC because they perceived not only that they were unwelcome, but that it was not their police force. At the end of the day, if one is in trouble and someone comes to one's rescue, one does not ask what religion they are.

Mr. Donaldson: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Pound: Of course; how could I not?

Mr. Donaldson: Is it not the case that despite all the changes and reforms to policing in Northern Ireland that have taken place and the advent of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, one sizeable section of the nationalist community still refuses to support the police, to encourage people to join the police or to participate in district policing partnerships? How does the hon. Gentleman explain that if he supports the current regulations that discriminate against Protestants?

Mr. Pound: I do not seek to explain that, I will not seek to condone it and I will never excuse it—it is wrong.

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However, the fact that one group of people takes that position does not invalidate the overall argument that I hope that we are making. I will not defend that group's position. I have tried to understand it, but I have failed. It is wrong—the hon. Gentleman and I agree on that. I hope that a more representative Police Service of Northern Ireland will make such postures an irrelevance in the near future.

Mr. Carmichael: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Pound: I do not think that I have any choice.

Mr. Carmichael: The hon. Gentleman always has a choice. May I invite him to return to the Bill because he started to make an interesting point on the importance of the judiciary reflecting wider communities and the wider society that I had hoped that he would explore? Does he agree that there is a practical importance to that? For example, a male-dominated judiciary, which is what we have had, has always found it especially difficult to deal with rape cases, so we have a poor record of convictions in such cases. Surely that is the sort of issue on which we should focus.

Mr. Pound: I will try to resist being sidetracked by rape, but the overall point that the hon. Gentleman makes is precisely right. I cannot think of any community in any society anywhere in the world that has not said, "Yes, leave it to us and we will gradually organically evolve into a more representative group." The United States Congress was mentioned earlier, but, in reality, every single group that was non-representative was unable to reform itself without some form of external legislation—it would be unfair of me to refer to Liberal Democrat parliamentary candidates in that context. Every body that I know says, "Leave it to us and we'll be more representative." Every single body I know signally fails to do so until a quota is imposed. We may not like that crude mechanism or blunderbuss, but it works. In a desperately fractured community with a small population we have to take such steps because that is the only way to make such a body represent the community in Northern Ireland. We could talk about that for much longer, but there are other Members who are far more qualified to talk about it than I am.

The operation of the hon. Member for Aylesbury—the Aylesbury razor—has left me only scraps, but I would like to deal briefly with the separation of paramilitary prisoners at Maghaberry. I am profoundly uncomfortable with many aspects of that separation, and have severe doubts about it. If there were any question of moving into a segregation regime I would enunciate those doubts even more forcefully. Like many hon. Members, I have visited Maghaberry—in fact, I am worried about the amount of time that I spend in prisons—and the experience taught me a number of things.

The difficulty of being a prison officer was mentioned, and I said earlier that 21 prison officers have been killed. I was wrong—in fact, 29 prison officers have been killed in Northern Ireland since the troubles began. Maghaberry is one of only two prisons in Northern Ireland—Magilligan is the other—and there is also

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Hydebank Wood young offenders institute. Maghaberry is the only maximum security prison, but it also houses failed asylum seekers and a few women prisoners, because there is no women's prison in Northern Ireland. The hon. Member for Belfast, East (Mr. Robinson) said that by and large Ulster women are extremely law-abiding, which I accept, but women prisoners are still accommodated in a house in the grounds of Maghaberry. In some ways, it is a recipe for building a bad prison, as there are little houses dotted around with a helicopter net over the top, and I hope that there will be an improvement when Bush and Roe houses are rebuilt. The present situation is not unique to Northern Ireland, as separation exists in each of the hundred-plus prisons on the prison estate. In some cases, there is an obvious separation of so-called vulnerable prisoners. In others, it is people supporting different football teams, or from different gangs, groups or ethnic formations.

Like most members of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, I heard the evidence of Father Kevin Donaghy and Canon Barry Dodds—I see from the official House of Commons report that the Canon's name is spelt as if he were a piece of artillery rather than a clerk in holy orders.

Mr. McNamara: There is not a conflict.

Mr. Pound: Indeed, there may be a congruence. Father Kevin, Canon Dodds and John Steele, who formed the Steele review panel, told us that safety of prisoners, both convicted and on remand, and prison staff was paramount. We must give credit to the people who were appointed to make that decision and are experts in the area. I do not like anything that moves us towards the arrangement that pertained in Long Kesh and the Maze, but we must accept separation if it is the only way to operate the prison safely in its present confines. It will throw up other problems, as people will identify with certain groups. One group, the Irish National Liberation Army, is not on ceasefire and is more strongly represented in Maghaberry than anywhere else outside parts of north Belfast where, I hope the whole House agrees, its members are committing the foulest and most disgusting crimes.

The Government are responding to the situation sensibly, calmly and pragmatically. They commissioned and analysed a review, which was representative in the context of our earlier discussions, and came up with a conclusion, the text of which contains the key fact that has not been touched on—namely, that a rebuilt and expanded Maghaberry will be able to order these things differently.

Personally, I find it surprising not only that Northern Ireland has no women's prison, but that it has just one maximum security prison. We seem to be building prisons at the rate of one a month on this side of the water, but have not done so in the one part of the United Kingdom where there is enough space. Would it not be rather a good idea to build a couple of smaller prisons there? I shall leave that to the Secretary of State; I am not in any way proposing additional Government expenditure.

The Bill has been described as a vehicle with elements being added to it. That is no bad thing, because a vehicle moves forward. The Bill moves the process forward by

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introducing certain tidying-up elements, the most important of which—a representative judiciary—cannot be allowed to wait any longer. The hon. Member for Aylesbury asked why that provision cannot be put on ice. I disagree with so little of what he says that I feel quite ashamed to say that I wholly disagree with that. The solutions to the problems in the north of Ireland will not be arrived at by clicking our fingers or switching on a light—there must be an organic process that is built up piece by piece. The establishment of a representative judiciary is one of the key pieces of the edifice that we are trying to build to allow people to live in peace and to fulfil the potential of their lives in a safe environment. Surely, that is not too much to ask—it is what we expect in every one of our constituencies.

Nobody could argue with the fact that a representative judiciary is an essential part of a safe, sane and sustainable civic society. We may disagree about the details, but can we not at least agree with the principle that those who judge us and rule over us should represent the communities that they judge and rule over? That is a basic point on which I hope that the whole House can agree.

5.37 pm

Mr. Andrew Hunter (Basingstoke) (Ind Con): I am conscious that the hon. Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Pound) will soon wish to return to his multi-tasking. I shall be selective in my remarks, because by this stage of the debate many of the main points have been made, and not all of them bear repetition.

On the hon. Gentleman's comments about recruiting for the Royal Ulster Constabulary, may I put it on the record that I have seldom disagreed more profoundly with any view that I have heard expressed in this Chamber? I urge the hon. Gentleman to re-read the introduction to the Patten report, where he will find Patten accepting that the RUC enjoyed greater cross-community support than many other forces in the United Kingdom.

The hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. Luke), who is not here at the moment, quoted words uttered by Baroness Amos when she introduced the Bill in another place:

"All justice systems must continue to evolve. They cannot be allowed to sit still and to ossify or they will cease to meet the needs of modern society."

I submit that that line of reasoning does not stand up in the present context. As the hon. Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon) and my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, North (Mr. Dodds) pointed out, we have had three police Bills in the past five years, and this is the second justice Bill. Ossification is not on the agenda. Indeed, it is the rapidity with which the Government have moved from one Bill to another that has brought doubt and challenged the credibility of their approach.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Lidington) said, once one has cleared away the debris, the simple truth is that the Bill has not been introduced to promote any great issue of principle. Despite the Government's assertions to the contrary, their primary purpose is not to improve the justice system, although some important changes are proposed, not all of which are controversial. The underlying motive for the Bill is political and involves trying to resuscitate a failed

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political process and induce an unreconstructed terrorist organisation to look more favourably on the Northern Ireland justice system. We know all that because of the Bill's origins in the Hillsborough negotiations, the purpose of which was to recreate a climate in which the devolved Assembly and Executive could be reconstructed. The joint declaration of the two Governments contained a commitment to the Bill, made on the understanding that at least some of its contents would please the provisional republican movement.

We have been reminded that the criminal justice review in 2000 recommended the establishment of an appointments commission when, and only when, devolution was up and running. The Justice (Northern Ireland) Act 2002 was consistent with that. However, although we are now in the context of suspended devolution, with no early signs of that situation changing, the Government are suddenly and dramatically legislating for the establishment of a judicial appointments commission before devolution. Baroness Amos explained in another place:

"That should make an important contribution towards enhancing public confidence in the Northern Ireland justice system."

I argue that the reverse is the case. Have the Government not yet realised that concessions of that sort are contemptible in themselves and downright objectionable to true democrats? Moreover, that approach is self-defeating because the more the Government make one-sided concessions, the less acceptable the whole process becomes. Parts of the Bill, particularly the first seven clauses, devalue the justice system in Northern Ireland into a bargaining counter. What recipe is that for encouraging public confidence? The Government claim that the Bill will create a

"better, more modern justice system"

for the Province, which

"will benefit all the people of Northern Ireland in equal part"—

whatever that may mean—and that it will lead to

"even higher levels of trust and confidence in the justice system."—[Official Report, House of Lords, 16 December 2003; Vol. 655, c. 1091–92.]

In fact, it will do no such thing because it will politicise key aspects of Northern Ireland's justice system, especially judicial appointments.

In that regard, one need look no further than clause 1, which empowers the Lord Chancellor, rather than the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister, to establish a judicial appointments commission. That is fine while present arrangements last, but if I understand correctly the debate in another place, the Government envisage circumstances in which those powers will pass to the Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs. When those powers pass to an ordinary party politician, the scope for political influence will increase enormously.

Much the same goes for clause 4, which will increase political influence in the appointment of the Lord Chief Justice and the Lords Justices of Appeal. The First Minister and the Deputy First Minister will no longer merely be consulted, but will "make a recommendation" to the Prime Minister. In other words, the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister must agree on a

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candidate to recommend to the Prime Minister who, in turn, will make the recommendation to the Queen. It is hard to envisage a more political process than that for an appointment.

In his opening speech, the Secretary of State declared his intention to resurrect the original clause 5. I urge him to move with great caution. Clause 5, as originally drafted, weakened the power of the Lord Chief Justice in cases of removal or suspicion. Under the 2002 Act, the Lord Chief Justice had to agree before the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister could suspend someone. In the original draft of the Bill, he had merely to be consulted. The key point is that security of tenure for senior judges is one of the most important safeguards of their independence, and we undermine it at our peril.

Much has been said about the guiding principles relating to appointments being made on merit alone, and being reflective of the community. Perhaps I did not make my point quite clearly enough when I intervened on my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, North. The point that I wished to make, which others have made as well, is that there is, at the very least, tension between those principles. Indeed, they are conflicting principles. I can envisage only one way of resolving that tension, and that is through the creation of a pool of merit. I did not mean to imply that I was in favour of that; indeed, the experiences of the police force warn strongly against the creation of such a pool. My argument is that, as the Bill stands, that is the logical way in which matters will proceed in practice. We should therefore resist the proposal.

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