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Mrs. Iris Robinson (Strangford) (DUP): Does my hon. Friend agree that the stance taken this evening by the right hon. Member for Upper Bann (Mr. Trimble) is breathtakingly hypocritical?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I think that the hon. Lady should withdraw that remark. It is not a term that we use in relation to any hon. Member of this House.
Mrs. Robinson: I am happy to withdraw that particular comment. I am against the shocking and disappointing 50:50 recruitment policy in the Police Service of Northern Ireland. The right hon. Member for Upper Bann says that he is against 50:50 recruitment, but his former colleague for Fermanagh and South Tyrone, Ken Maginnis, recommended it.
Mr. Donaldson: I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention. If she had used the term "stretching credibility", it would have made her point. I recently read comments by Monsignor Dennis Faul in the Belfast News Letter, who pointed to the fact that 50:50 recruitment was first proposed by Lord Maginnis of Drumglass, who was then the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone. As a member of his
party at that time, I knew that he advocated 50:50 recruitment, and that point came out in the Patten report. We remember that he welcomed the appointment of Chris Patten to chair the independent commission on policing, and he has lived to regret that welcome. It stretches credibility for Ulster Unionist Members to campaign against 50:50 recruitment when the former hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone first advocated it.On policing, the problem is about confidence not only in the judiciary but in the rule of law generally. The SDLP is pushing hard for its proposal that the full-time police reserve should be wound up in 2005. In the Lisburn district command unit in my constituency that would mean that 80 full-time reserve officers would be removed. Who will replace those officers in an already under-resourced police service that cannot respond to many of the calls that come in to the police station—some of them 999 calls? While the Secretary of State will trumpet what he regards as the progress that has been made on policing, district commanders—I mean no reflection on the quality of the police officers that we have—do not have the resources needed to cope with the levels of crime, antisocial behaviour and paramilitary activity on our streets.
We have previously stated that we do not in principle oppose the idea of greater independence in judicial appointments. Transparency, accountability, openness and independence at all levels of government and in the administration of government are to be encouraged. Of course, the Northern Ireland Office has not always practised such transparency in government. One thinks, for example, of the operation of the Anglo-Irish—now the British-Irish—intergovernmental conference, which has lacked transparency in its deliberations. We could do with a bit more transparency in government in Northern Ireland.
Our difficulty with the Government's approach to constitutional reform is that it is often ill thought out and inappropriate in terms of how it implements change. As I have said, the motivation behind the introduction of the Bill is the joint declaration, which was agreed between Her Majesty's Government and the Irish Government, with the involvement—to some degree—of some of the political parties who were present at Hillsborough during the negotiations.
We have been talking this evening about justice and confidence in the system of justice. However, a key proposal in the joint declaration is an amnesty for IRA terrorists who are on the run from justice. That is a travesty of justice. It undermines confidence in the rule of law in Northern Ireland to suggest that a terrorist who has committed a serious crime—up to and including murder—can effectively walk free without fear of going to prison for that crime. That is what the Government propose in the joint declaration, which is also the source of the Bill.
We hear lectures from hon. Members on the other side of the House about the need to build confidence in the judicial system. Can they explain to my constituents who have been the victims of IRA terrorism how it upholds the rule of law and our system of justice to grant a de facto amnesty to IRA terrorists who have
committed some of the worst atrocities during what was known as the troubles in Northern Ireland? That is what the joint declaration does. How will that build confidence in our system of justice, especially in the Unionist community, which suffered probably more than most at the hands of the IRA. There is no justice in such cases.Let us be frank about saying that the Government will bend over backwards to assuage the concerns of the nationalist community. They will introduce Bill after Bill to address those concerns, but they heap coals on the heads of the Unionist community with the proposal in the joint declaration for an amnesty for IRA terrorists who are on the run. The DUP will not support, endorse or give credence to such a proposal. Indeed, we will oppose it vigorously and it will continue to be a major problem for political progress in Northern Ireland. I urge the Government to scrap any notion of an amnesty for IRA terrorists on the run. That, I believe, in a single move, would help to increase Unionist confidence in the rule of law and the system of justice in Northern Ireland.
The Bill could politicise the system of appointing judges in Northern Ireland. I fully support the amendment tabled by the official Opposition, and I endorse the remarks of the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Lidington). It is important that the Government reflect on the proposals and think again, especially on the political motivation behind the proposals in the Bill. We support a system of judicial appointment that is truly independent, transparent and fair, and free from political motivation and politicisation. We know the difficulties that that can cause in Northern Ireland. The Bill as currently drafted does not meet those tests, as my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, North (Mr. Dodds) said.
Some of the proposals in the Bill clearly have merit. It should be noted that, if they are important to the functioning and administration of criminal justice in Northern Ireland, they should have been included in the 2002 Act. I have not heard a clear explanation from the Government as to why they were not. There are key aspects that have been implemented in England and Wales that we are waiting for in Northern Ireland—antisocial behaviour orders, for example. I recently sent to the Minister my party's response to the consultation document on antisocial behaviour. I urge him to act quickly, because such behaviour is becoming endemic in many parts of Northern Ireland, some of it fuelled by the paramilitaries, but much of it not. We need action on that.
Mr. Spellar: Will the hon. Gentleman at least give us credit for having compressed the consultation period, precisely so that we can introduce legislation and get it through before the summer?
Mr. Donaldson: I will give the Minister credit when the legislation comes before this House—and the quicker the better.
The Bill grants the Prison Service greater options in respect of transferring prisoners. I am currently dealing with a case involving a prisoner with severe psychological problems who needs professional help that he cannot get within the prison system in Northern
Ireland. The Bill may help with other aspects of the Prison Service, but, like my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, North, we hope that the power will be used only as a last resort, to prevent unnecessary hardship for relatives in respect of visitation rights.The Bill gives the Attorney-General the power to issue human rights guidance to criminal justice organisations, advising them on how to carry out certain functions. That appears on the face of it to be uncontroversial, but the critical matter will be the nature of the advice given. While an offence of influencing a prosecutor seems uncontroversial, we are not sure how it will work in practice. It is hoped that the measure will not be used to prevent legitimate representations from being made or elected representatives from making justified public comment.
Elements of the Bill are sensible, but the fact that we are debating them only two years after the 2002 Act clearly highlights the Government's disjointed approach to key issues in Northern Ireland. They seem to operate and legislate for Northern Ireland on the basis of meeting the demands that are wheeled out from time to time by some of the more vocal elements in our society, and that is why some aspects of the Bill are flawed and they need to take more time to reflect on them before pressing ahead.
The Government have acted in haste in constitutional reform generally, and in the Bill in particular. They must start to learn from some of the mistakes that have been made. The people of Northern Ireland will not be well served if this legislation needs to be amended because of the Government's haste in appeasing those who are, and have always been, very vocal in their criticism of the justice system in Northern Ireland, without any real justification.
It is clear that it is not the right time, politically or constitutionally, to proceed with key elements of the Bill. The Opposition's amendment therefore has much merit, and I urge the Minister to consider it carefully.
6.15 pm
Mr. Eddie McGrady (South Down) (SDLP): The debate has ranged far and wide and occasionally rather far from the Bill's terms of reference, but that is to be expected given the Bill's context and the circumstances in our communities in Northern Ireland.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon) said, we welcome the Bill, which is the second or third attempt to get right and implement the criminal justice review, allied as it was to the reform of the Police Service of Northern Ireland. Such numerous attempts to get matters right while accusing other parties of not fulfilling their obligations under the Good Friday agreement ring very hollow indeed, particularly when it is a Government source who is exhorting others to perform to the fullness of that agreement.
I welcome the Bill because it endeavours to bring about at least partial real reform, and to ensure that we have a reflective judiciary. There is a duty on criminal justice agencies to have regard for international human rights standards, and the Bill makes it an offence, among other things, to influence the Director of Public
Prosecutions. But three elements that were omitted from the previous legislation have been omitted again from the Bill. When I asked the Secretary of State about the DPP's referring to the police ombudsman cases involving allegations of police misconduct, I was less than enthused by his answer. In essence, he said, "Don't expect me to answer that question now, but we'll take it up in more detail in Committee." Clarity of thought at this stage would have been very desirable, in order to provide proper interpretation of what is a multi-interpretable provision.The situation was very simple. The review proposed that if the DPP encountered an allegation of misconduct, it should be referred—properly, constitutionally and statutorily—to the police ombudsman. However, a new concept and new wording has been added, to the effect that such an allegation needs only to "appear" to be proved. That means that the DPP has a judicial decision to make virtually of his own accord. We hope that that will be remedied in Committee.
There is also the question, which was raised earlier, of the appointment of the panel of senior judges. The First Minister and Deputy First Minister will make joint recommendations to the Prime Minister, who in turn will take cognisance of, and have due regard for, those recommendations. The proposal in the criminal justice review report seems not to have been straightforwardly and fully implemented, in that another layer of decision making has intervened between the recommendations of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister, and the ultimate appointment as made by the Prime Minister.
As I said earlier, the Bill is part of the process of fulfilling undertakings made in the Good Friday agreement. There are other matters that remain unfulfilled—they have been referred to in somewhat emotive terms, and correctly so—in respect of the other parties that signed up to the agreement.
Much has been said time and again—and I can only emphasise it on the basis of my own experience and the experience of those in my constituency—about the continuation of horrendous punishment beatings and worse in my community. We are faced with the audacity, the offence, that elected representatives of Sinn Fein—let me be blunt about it—to the Assembly have recommended to my constituents, to the old people who have suffered attacks and burglaries in my constituency, that they do not under any circumstances approach the PSNI, but should instead address their problems of justice to something called "restorative justice".
"Restorative justice" is a very worthwhile and important aspect of community, particularly in Northern Ireland, but it is embryonic and has not had its conditions laid down. Yet we have growing up in our constituency communities groups calling themselves "restorative justice" groupings, which are simply fronts for quasi-paramilitaries and sometimes not so quasi paramilitaries. Fulfilment of the requirement for restorative justice, allied to the police as restorative justice is, should be dealt with as a matter of grave urgency.
That also applies to the intimidation and other activities—punishment beatings, drug trafficking and protection rackets—carried out by the other
paramilitaries: the loyalists, the Provisional IRA, the Real IRA, the dissident IRA, and any other groups one cares to mention. These are all aspects of non-fulfilment of terms of reference in the agreement. That is why it is important that we take our opportunity in Committee to address the matters that are missing from these proposals, so that we can sign off for the criminal justice review.At least the Government could then say, "We fulfilled our part in that aspect of the Good Friday agreement", and they would not have egg on their face because of the counter-accusation, "Why do you talk about us not fulfilling things? Why do you talk about the DUP refusing to participate in the Executive, the joint Administration? Why do you talk about the UUP withdrawing from the structure set up under the Good Friday agreement?" There are deficiencies all round. At least the Government should remove their own deficiencies.
In speaking to the reasoned amendment, the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Lidington) presented little argument for its terms, but gave a wide-ranging discourse on many aspects of justice, policing, security and even constitutional matters in Northern Ireland. That is fair enough. They all have to be put into their context.
I should like to refer to one aspect that the hon. Gentleman dealt with: the separation of prisoners at Maghaberry prison. He quoted at length from the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, which dealt with the matter, and emphasised, although he did not look me straight in the eye, that its decision was unanimous and that therefore I as a member was party to it. I made a written submission objecting to the Committee's conclusion. That objection was put to the Committee and rejected. I did not think that I would have the audacity to file a minority report on a single issue like that, but my record is there in writing.
I do not think that that decision was made on the basis of political expedience. I think that there was a real danger to prisoners, because in Maghaberry there are not only republican and loyalist political prisoners, but also so-called ordinary, decent criminals, as they are referred to in Northern Ireland, as well as illegal immigrants in custody. So there are at least four categories, and if one divides the loyalist paramilitaries and the republican paramilitaries into further sub-groups, one has a mess. It was to do with the danger to criminals within the prison that the separation, rather than segregation, was made. I have a very clear understanding of the difference.
To return to the Bill, it is an attempt—the third, I believe—to make the judiciary in Northern Ireland more understanding and more open to the public so that what is happening is clearer to the ordinary man in the street. Justice cannot be seen as a person with a long wig sitting in England dictating what happens in the system. That is putting it rather crudely, but that is the image that many people have, and the Bill is an attempt to introduce some transparency in the way in which people are selected for judicial appointments. I agree with everyone who has said that selection must be based clearly on merit, but it must also be seen to be open and not an old boys' network. I hope that the provisions will
help to achieve that. They are part of an ongoing process that I hope will successfully conclude, in respect of the criminal justice review, when the Bill is passed.There are many other issues. I am tempted to go down the road of speaking about various aspects of policing that have cropped up in this evening's debate. As a member of the Northern Ireland Policing Board, I give a strong indication, if not of a financial interest, at least of a vested opinionated interest in its workings.
The hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr. Donaldson) referred to 50-50 recruiting. If, under the new dispensation, we want to convert a police force that was something like 93 per cent. Protestant and make it acceptable to, and representative of, the entire community in a reasonable time, what is the alternative? Even with 50-50 recruitment it will take some 15 to 18 years for community proportionality to be reflected in the Police Service of Northern Ireland. Without the 50-50 arrangement, we would have to double that period, but can the whole community afford to have such a substantial number of people withholding their consent and failing to support the police?
As it is, it will be an uphill struggle because of Sinn Fein's non-involvement, for its own particular reasons, in policing. I state clearly that it is attempting to establish its own police services in our communities through the so-called restorative justice committees, which are accusing, convicting and executing people—particularly young people. There are many tragedies such as multiple suicides of young men in parts of Belfast, which are brought about by the continued pressure of paramilitaries on those communities. It is also reflected—perhaps less dramatically—in the problems and behaviour of young people right across our communities, both nationalist and Unionist.
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