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Mrs. Iris Robinson: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the failure of Catholics to join what was then the Royal Ulster Constabulary was down to the Catholic Church's encouragement not to support the state, as well as the threat of violence from the IRA?
Mr. McGrady: The hon. Lady asked a legitimate question, the second part of which I can accept. Particularly in the last 30 years, anyone in the Catholic community who had the audacity or the bravery to join the RUC took a severe risk, but many did—many, but not enough. However, I do not accept that the first part of the hon. Lady's question is justifiable. I must say, even though it may cause offence to Unionist Members, that the RUC was seen—rightly or wrongly—to be a Protestant police force for a Protestant people. That was traditional in our community and was handed down in the expressions of the fathers of the Unionist parties at the time. They advised their people not to employ Catholics. The atmosphere created was that Catholics were not welcome to join the police. Theoretically and statutorily, they all had rights—
Lady Hermon: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. McGrady: No, I have only one minute to go.
Everyone had rights theoretically, but in practice it was a very chill house for Catholics, and people must accept that.
In addition, there was the whole burden of the troubles. We must remember that it was the Catholic community who mainly suffered from the Provisional IRA's campaign, and they who, in turn, paid the price for it through what were sometimes extremely one-sided actions by the then RUC. Innumerable honourable men and women performed their duties exceptionally well, but the general ethos was anti-Catholic. That is why we must have the 50–50 split, and why it must continue if we are to have a police service that reflects the community.
6.30 pm
Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Cotswold) (Con): It is a privilege to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Lidington) in supporting our reasoned amendment. The debate has been well informed, but sadly, it takes place against the background that the hon. Member for South Down (Mr. McGrady) has so ably described. The sad situation in Northern Ireland is that the punishment beatings, the racketeering, the exclusions and even the pressure towards suicide among young people have all got worse since the joint agreement.
It is against that background, and following the elections in October and the suspension of the Assembly, that we are considering the Bill, which has its antecedents in the joint declaration of 2003. The joint declaration makes it clear that the devolution of policing and criminal justice should take place
- "within the lifetime of the next Assembly"—
- "on a basis that is robust and workable and broadly supported by the parties."
- "The Annex is written on the basis that arrangements for devolving policing and justice will need to be agreed between the parties"—
- "and subsequently between the British Government and the Executive, and that these arrangements must be robust and workable. The British Government will wish to give careful consideration to the views of the parties on all of the matters below."
- "Definitive acts of completion, independently monitored, would provide the necessary context for addressing and agreeing the practicalities of such further devolution as quickly as possible."
The debate has been well informed, and it is a pity that the situation in Northern Ireland is not more settled. I defer tonight to all the Members who represent the Northern Ireland people, because they understand what is happening there. Many of them have lived with it for many years, and they understand the horrors and difficulties of what is going on in the Province.
It is sad that this House, through debates such as this, and through all the statutory instruments that we deal with in Committee, must effectively govern the Province of Northern Ireland, although we would like to see a devolved institution making its own decisions.
Many constructive speeches have been made tonight. I take on board in particular the bravery of the two speeches by SDLP Members, who so robustly and graphically told us what the situation is like now. The hon. Member for Belfast, North (Mr. Dodds) talked about, among other things, the transfer of prisoners to the mainland.
I shall deal with one or two matters that are not in the first seven clauses of the Bill, because I want to deal with the minor matters first and then the first seven clauses, because they are the most controversial. First, I want to talk about the transfer of prisoners. My hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury quoted from the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee report on the Steele commission's segregation decision concerning Maghaberry prison, and I shall do the same. My hon. Friend and I visited that prison and we saw for ourselves what went on there.
I shall quote from paragraph 44 of the Select Committee report. I accept that the hon. Member for South Down produced his own minority report, and it is interesting that the hon. Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Pound), who supported the Government's decision in the Steele review, signed up to it.
Paragraph 44 of the Select Committee report states:
- "Nonetheless we have to record our belief that the decision—taken, as we see it, contrary to the balance of the facts and arguments presented to us—was a dangerous one, most especially for the public servants who will have to implement it and live with its consequences."
David Burnside: Does the hon. Gentleman accept the excellent idea offered by my hon. Friend the Member for North Down (Lady Hermon)? Her suggestion was that republican prisoners in Northern Ireland should be transferred to our neighbours in the Irish Republic. Under the jurisdiction of the Republic, those republican prisoners could return to their ancestral home, and serve out their time under the authority of the south. That would be an excellent example of cross-border co-operation.
Mr. Clifton-Brown: I do not accept that idea, as the quid pro quo would be that the Republic would require us to take some of their more dangerous prisoners into the north. The provision that dangerous prisoners may be transferred to the mainland must be used sparingly.
Mr. Spellar: I just want to point out that the suggested course of action would be against a law passed by the previous Conservative Government.
Mr. Clifton-Brown: I am glad that my predecessors shared my sensible view of the matter.
The Bill is being presented against a background of political uncertainty. In Standing Committee, we will need to examine carefully its raison d'être. The words of
Lord Mayhew are worth bearing in mind in that regard. He has immense experience, both of Northern Ireland and of the post of Attorney-General. He told the other place that
- "Throughout the past 30 years, the judiciary of Northern Ireland, appointed as it has been by the Lord Chancellor, has earned a superb reputation for its fairness and impartiality".
- "Nor could anyone point to any significant or telling imbalance in the staffing of the High Court or the Court of Appeal in Northern Ireland. Their members were appointed by the Lord Chancellor, solely on merit and I am sure always consulting the Lord Chief Justice of the day. In my experience it so happens that, if anything, marginally more appointments were made from those with Catholic backgrounds."—[Official Report, House of Lords, 16 December 2003; Vol. 665, c. 1107–08.]
We will want to look carefully and in detail at why the Bill proposes to set up a separate judicial appointments board, and why it will alter the way in which the Lord Chief Justice and the Lords Justices of Appeal are appointed.
I shall return to those controversial clauses in a moment, after I have commented on some of the excellent contributions to the debate. I was very struck by the remark made by the right hon. Member for Upper Bann (Mr. Trimble)—my right hon. Friend—who said that the Belfast agreement committed the parties to equality of treatment and opportunity, not equality of outcome. That is probably one of the most pertinent remarks to have been made in the debate. Citing his experience as a lawyer who used to be in favour of the appointments commission, he said that he had changed his mind and considered the proposal dangerous. When a Member of Parliament of such experience says that, the rest of us must sit up and take note.
The hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. Luke), who is a member of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, also made a good speech. He said that the proposal to transfer prisoners to the mainland—and he thought that they would go to Scotland in particular—could be regarded by the nationalists as akin to transportation. He said that the provision could become a political weapon for paramilitaries. Other hon. Members made the same point.
I think that the hon. Member for Belfast, North made the point that the Bill could be turned into a bargaining position as part of the political process in due course. That is one of the reasons why we proposed our amendment; we believe that the Bill is part of a political process whereby too many concessions have been made to the IRA and its satellites without receiving from them in return enough commitment to the peace process. My hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury was exactly right about that. If organisations want to participate in the democratic process they have to demonstrate democratic credentials in return.
I shall return to the controversial clauses—clauses 1 to 7—and especially to the paradox shown by the provision under clause 2(1) where it is stated that the appointments commission has to be "representative of the community" while clause 3 states that appointment is to be solely
- "on the basis of merit".
That gives rise to a degree of doubt about the true impartiality of the new appointments procedure. The commission is to be made up of a chairman—the Lord Chief Justice—seven members of the legal profession and five lay members. The only way that it could work, as several Members have pointed out, would be if there were a pool of judges from whom to select, but as there are not many judges in Northern Ireland, it will be quite difficult to ensure that we select the best possible candidates.
A core value of our justice system is that it is independent of all political interference. My fear is that appointments under the Bill will be seen as subject to political interference. The appointment of the Lord Chief Justice and Lords Justices of Appeal through recommendations to the Prime Minister, who may or may not accept such recommendations and who then makes a recommendation to the Queen, makes it look as though political interference could affect the criminal justice system.
With the Bill, we are going backwards, not forwards. It is a great pity that the Government did not do what they set out in the joint agreement. They should have consulted all the parties properly to see whether it was realistic to introduce the Bill. It is a poor way to legislate. We have had three police Bills over the past six years; this is the second criminal justice Bill in the past three years. The Government are proposing measures that are not properly thought out and we shall want to examine the Bill in great detail in Committee. I hope that we shall be able to amend it.
In considering the whole process, the Government need to find a way to ensure that the devolved Assembly is brought back into operation as quickly as is reasonable in the circumstances to return stability and normality to the Province. Having heard the Secretary of State on the "Today" programme this morning, I have some fears; the Government are not coming up with proposals for moving the process on.
We fear that, if we do not move the process on, it will move backwards, which would be a great pity. Although the situation in the Province remains serious, the number of killings and bombings and the most serious terrorist offences has reduced—[Interruption.]—dramatically. Indeed; I accept the Minister's sedentary comment. It will be a great pity if we get the Bill wrong and confidence in the criminal justice system in Northern Ireland went backwards because it was seen as politicised.
I urge the House to support our amendment.
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