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6.44 pm
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr. John Spellar): I am grateful to hon. Members who have participated in the debate, although I expect that a greater number will attend Northern Ireland questions next Wednesday, prior to the Budget. A considerable number of points have been raised, and I shall address them in Committee if I cannot cover them all in the time available. I shall deal with the regrettable Opposition amendment in a brief rant towards the end of my speech.
I certainly take the point raised very strongly by the hon. Member for Belfast, North (Mr. Dodds) about the ongoing activity of the Provisional IRA, although we need to reflect, as was indicated in the exchange with the hon. Member for Cotswold (Mr. Clifton-Brown), on the considerable improvement that has taken place. We always need to get that balance right. I obviously depart from the hon. Member for Belfast, North on the conclusions that he draws. He implies that the provisions are somehow concessions to those groups. That is not the case at all. Indeed, a number of the controversial issues that we are describing involve the timing of matters that were already agreed in 2002, when the Justice (Northern Ireland) Bill was passed. The hon. Member for Belfast, North and other hon. Members also asked questions about other legislation, comparing it with needs on the ground, and I strongly reject the implication that we were not responding.
The hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Lidington) rightly talked about the problems of racial attacks. Indeed, only today, a regrettable, racist anti-Chinese leaflet has been circulating in south Belfast. Not only have I issued a very strong condemnatory statement, but the police are taking strong action. The hon. Gentleman ought to acknowledge the proactive role that the police are taking, and there has been a sizeable dip in the number of racial attacks.
We recognise that there is considerable scope to improve legislation. That is precisely why we have published our legislative proposals on giving courts increased sentencing powers in respect of attacks that are provoked by hatred of one form or another. That sends a clear message to the perpetrators and a great message of reassurance to those who could be victims, as well as putting a weapon in the hand of the judiciary. Consultation ends on 9 April, and we want to introduce the proposals as soon as possible afterwards.
Of course antisocial behaviour is also a significant problem, and the hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr. Donaldson) rightly raised the concerns that his constituents have expressed. I suspect that similar concerns are raised by constituents of Members of Parliament right across the United Kingdom. As I told a delegation from Magherafelt recently, we face a paradox: the number of recorded crimes has declined with proactive police action, but there is greater insecurity in many areas as well. A lot of that is linked not just to what is defined in legislation as crime, but to antisocial and intolerable behaviour.
It is true that we could not do a straight read-across from the legislation in England and Wales, because of the different administrative and local government structures. To be blunt, I do not think that we moved quickly enough on that, but I take the point that has been made a couple of times by the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) and the right hon. Member for Upper Bann (Mr. Trimble). We have moved on the issue: we had the consultation in principle, which has already developed into major support, and we now have the consultation in detail. As I have indicated, I am bringing that forward to 9 April, precisely so that we can deal with it as quickly as possible. I know from the experience in England and Wales that we will then need to ensure that all parts of the prosecution and justice system use their powers under antisocial behaviour legislation. That is equally important in terms of diminishing paramilitary activity.
The hon. Member for South Down (Mr. McGrady) mentioned those who try to refer cases outside the justice system. There will now be an effective mechanism to deal with those cases, which are causing such problems. We have been doing more than that: we have also introduced reparation orders in youth justice matters, and we have been involving the perpetrators with their victims. Again, that is starting to have an impact on changing people's behaviour and the atmosphere on the ground. So it is not true that we are ignoring those very significant problems. We are considering a number of issues that we need to tackle, and we are doing so in the Bill.
Mr. Carmichael: The Minister has dealt very well with matters that are not in the Bill but could be in it. Will he address one matter that is in the Bill and perhaps should not be—clause 6 on influencing a prosecutor? I asked the Secretary of State whether he could explain the difference between that and the common-law offence of attempting to pervert the course of justice, but he did not do so. I have since noticed that there is one difference. The maximum penalty on conviction on indictment is five years, which is significantly less than the penalty available for the common-law offence. Is the signal that the Government seek to send that this is, somehow or other, a much less important species of attempting to pervert the course of justice?
Mr. Spellar: No it is not. We have specifically written the provision into the Bill to make clear our disapproval of such behaviour. Rather than it just being a common-law offence, it will become an explicit statutory offence. That is why we are putting it in the Bill.
The hon. Gentleman said that some matters that are not in the Bill could be in it. That point has been made by several hon. Members. If there is a broad sense that the feeling of the House is that we should look at the consultative procedures that we undertake with regard to some of the provisions in the Bill in order to compress their time scales, hon. Members should perhaps say that and put that as a proposition. I become frustrated and share the concerns of the electorate at the time that we take, but I recognise that we need to engage with those who want to make representations and to express their views when we examine proposals. I therefore ask colleagues to reflect on whether we need to compress the time scales so that we can deal with pressing problems on the ground in a shorter time.
I do not take away our responsibility for dealing with matters administratively in a short time or for trying to do work in parallel when that is possible. However, some of the approach is simply set down by the procedures for consultation—not particularly in this case, but in others—because we are operating direct rule on matters that were previously devolved. We need to reflect on the broader issues involved and accept that the matter is not as simple and straightforward as some colleagues suggest.
I come now to the early clauses on the judicial appointments commission. Originally, the commission was laid down in previous legislation to come into effect when devolution of justice took place. Therefore, the principle of a judicial appointments commission has
already been established by the House and enshrined in statute. We are now in the position in which those powers are being moved to the Lord Chancellor until devolution of justice takes place. I do not see a great issue of principle with having a judicial appointments commission to put views to the Lord Chancellor as opposed to one that makes recommendations to the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister. It is perfectly creditable for the right hon. Member for Upper Bann to take the position, "I previously thought one thing about it, but now I have a different view." However, I do not see a great issue of principle between having the commission as originally envisaged in the Justice (Northern Ireland) Act 2002 or as it is proposed in the Bill.As we have said several times, we are putting forward a Bill providing for a justice appointments commission in England and Wales. Indeed, there is already a Judicial Appointments Board in Scotland, as the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Carmichael) said. It was established in 2002, and it seems to be working reasonably well. I accept the questions that have been raised about the board, and I will obviously have further discussions with Scottish representatives on that matter so that we can deal with the issue in Committee. Again, it appears that the issue has been dealt with adequately in Scotland without creating a great deal of difficulty.
The question has been asked whether the commission will affect impartiality, but does that imply that the Northern Ireland judiciary is not already impartial? We do not agree with that because we believe that the Northern Ireland judiciary should be commended on its professionalism and impartiality, as has been said several times. That is why the Justice (Northern Ireland) Act 2002 refers specifically to the continued independence of the judiciary. The criminal justice review, which the Bill builds on, is about modernising the system of appointments in line with the changing needs of society. As the hon. Member for Basingstoke (Mr. Hunter) rightly said, that was highlighted by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House of Lords.
Mr. Clifton-Brown: The Minister says that the criminal justice system in Northern Ireland is currently impartial and working well. If that is the case, why do we need the Bill and a whole new appointments commission with all the difficulties and downsides that that entails?
Mr. Spellar: We already have provision for a judicial appointments commission. That was agreed when we considered the 2002 Act.
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