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Mr. Graham Stringer (Manchester, Blackley) (Lab): Will the hon. Gentleman define "sustainable"?
Mr. Marsden: It is that which is not to the detriment of the environment and which can be planned for the future in terms of growth. In relation to managing demand, it is something that balances against demand that is to the detriment of the environment. The Government are not approaching the matter in that way. They are accepting from the outset that there must be a massive expansion in passenger growth, and they are not even beginning to offset that in terms of environmental taxes.
Mr. John Wilkinson (Ruislip-Northwood) (Con): While the hon. Gentleman is on the subject of growth, do he or his party envisage any growth in employment in civil air transport? Is that an aspect of his party's policies to which he attaches any importance? Is not civil air transport a major source of jobs and prosperity in many parts of the country?
Mr. Marsden: I agree totally. That is why I started my speech by recognising its importance for employment, which is recognised particularly in the regions of this country, and perhaps in the highlands and islands. That is the point of trying to find ways to expand regional capacity rather than just increasing capacity in the south-east. As I was about to say, Tony Juniper of Friends of the Earth, with whom I concur, said:
- "If the aviation industry was taxed fairly",
- "rather than letting it pay no fuel tax"—
- "and no VAT, then we would not need any new runways anywhere in the country. But it seems that for this Government and the aviation industry, not even the sky is the limit".
Mr. James Plaskitt (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab): Will the hon. Gentleman outline the tax proposals that he has in mind?
Mr. Marsden: Certainly, and I am glad to have taken that intervention. Rail operators pay about 3p a litre in
duty on fuel. Private motorists pay about 45.8p a litre in duty on their fuel. Currently, airlines pay no such duty. I suggest, as recommended by the Government's experts, that 3p a litre would not be an unfair tax.
Mr. Donohoe: Having examined this matter in some detail, I think that one of the differences between an aeroplane and a train, a car, a bicycle or any other form of transport is the extent to which an aircraft goes abroad. If it goes far enough abroad, it can pick up fuel, and in those circumstances, it would be able to avoid the consequences of the hon. Gentleman's proposals. What he says does not therefore make an awful lot of sense.
Mr. Marsden: At the end of the day, the reality is that long-haul jets arriving at Heathrow or Gatwick are pretty unlikely to try to hop over the channel to refuel. Yes, some airlines may well try to avoid any fuel tax duty. We must make a stand, however, put our environment first and say that there are times when the polluter should pay. We believe in that for other forms of transport, so why do we let airlines off the hook?
Mr. Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): Is it not a flaw in the hon. Gentleman's argument that he is against further runway development? Is it not the case that one of the current difficulties is that airports are being used at a level above their efficient capacity, which causes problems? Does he accept, for example, that the scheduled block time on the flight between London and Edinburgh was 60 minutes 10 years ago and is now 90 minutes? Planes are therefore circling airports, adding extra pollution to the environment. If we do not build extra runways, that can only increase.
Mr. Marsden: I totally agree, but a Conservative Government were told about 20 years ago that there would be serious expansion and serious environmental problems in the future, and they did nothing. They continued with predict and provide, with which this Government are also continuing. Had they responded differently, perhaps the right hon. Gentleman's argument would have a little more validity, but we must try to tackle the problem now and manage the precise demand to which he refers. That is why I believe in various environmental management methods, including considering tax increases, that would enable us to do that.
As for the Government saying, "Well, this is what people want," let me quote to the Minister what the Campaign to Protect Rural England says on its website:
- "The aviation industry's own figures show that the poorest 10 per cent. of people rarely fly."
- "Most of the growth predicted for 2030 by the Department for Transport is by the wealthiest 10 per cent. flying overseas at weekends."
Mr. Marsden: With the greatest respect to the Chairman of the Select Committee, on which I sit, I may say that if she is seriously suggesting that 6 million out of the 60 million people in this country fly by private, chartered plane, she is sadly mistaken. The figures demonstrate that even Posh and Becks fly occasionally from normal airports like the rest of us.
The point is that I am quoting not my party's figures but the Minister's. He must explain why the bottom 10 per cent. of people—another 6 million in this country—rarely fly. [Interruption.] In response to the remarks shouted across the Chamber, I say that nothing will be solved by lowering prices. When it comes to expanding current capacity, every citizen in this country will be extremely concerned about the damaging impact on our environment. To those who mock, I say that we will reap the impact for generations to come unless we start to do something about it.
2.8 pm
Mr. Graham Stringer (Manchester, Blackley) (Lab): The hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Mr. Marsden), my colleague on the Transport Committee, shares with the Secretary of State for Transport, Dr. Jonathan Porritt and every other person whom I have asked, an inability to define what is sustainable in relation to aviation. If we look at the original consultation document, we find "sustainable" on almost every page. In the White Paper, however, I found "sustainable" only once, although it may be hiding on other pages. The reason for that is that the Government have realised that "sustainable" cannot be applied to aviation. One simply cannot burn tonnes of kerosene in a huge machine and pretend that that is in some way sustainable, if sustainable means that one will regenerate at the end of the process what one started with. It is not a word that should be used. We can talk about "environmental improvement" or use other words, but it would helpful if we omitted "sustainable" from the debate and concentrated on aviation. I was not going to say that, but I do so having listened to the hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham, who, having sought asylum in the Liberal Democrat party now seems to be seeking it in cloud cuckoo land, as far as understanding what is happening in the world of aviation is concerned.
A good definition of predict and provide is to assess capacity and build to it. If the Government had used predict and provide in aviation over the last 60 years, there might have been something in the fantasy of the hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham, who spoke of the Government building runways all over the place. Not a single new runway has been built in south-east England, and only one has been built in the whole of the UK—at Manchester airport, for which I was partially responsible. What he described simply will not happen. The Secretary of State provided a good definition of why
predict and provide did not apply and set out a framework in which the commercial parts of the aviation industry would take decisions about whether to invest in new infrastructure.I have a final criticism of the speech made by the hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham, and it goes to the core of the false arguments underlying much of the environmental debate. Members must decide whether we get a better environment in a richer country than we do in a poorer country. If we invest in wealth-creating industries such as aviation, which support other industries, will we get wealthier? If we do, will we get a cleaner, better environment? I believe that we will, and I do not believe that the environment—I accept what the hon. Gentleman says about it being a global problem—will be improved by forcing aeroplanes out of the UK so that they have to fly further to European hubs, which will burn more kerosene, more aviation fuel and put more CO2 and NOx into the atmosphere.
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