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11.30 am
Mr. Andrew Dismore (Hendon) (Lab): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr. Jones) on introducing the Bill and on putting up with all the vagaries of a Friday sitting. Some of us who are in the Chamber on Fridays more often than others are aware of the tactical to-ing and fro-ing and know how frustrating and frightening that can be. However, I am pretty sure that my hon. Friend will achieve his objective today.
I wish particularly to support the Bill because at Brent Cross in my constituency there is one of the largest shopping centres in the country. Retailing is the major employment sector in my constituency. There are more people employed in retailing than in any other form of work. The Bill is of great importance to those who work in the sector.
Those who work in retailing in my constituency come from many different faiths. The right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth), in his peroration, set out all the different faith groups that we have in the UK. When I first read the Bill, I shared some of his concerns about whether we were doing enough to protect those of other faiths from being required to work on days that they regard as holy. However, that does not detract from the main thrust of the Bill, which is to preserve the special nature of Christmas day for families generally, not only for Christians, for people of no faith or for those with other faiths.
I think of the enormous stress and work that we place on those in the retail sector in the run-up to Christmas. People are working day in and day out, seven days a week, with no holidays. They work long hours and a great deal of overtime. It is only fair that we recognise the huge contribution that those people make, not only in making other people's Christmas happy and enjoyable but in contributing to the strength of our economy. We should recognise that by giving them at least one day off, which is absolutely clear, a year. I say to the Scrooge from Bromley—the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst—that his approach is not the way forward.
It is important to recognise that we are talking not only about shop workers but about all the other workers whose lives would also be affected if trading were allowed to continue on Christmas day. At present, transport workers will almost certainly not have to work on Christmas day. If trading were to continue on Christmas day, they would have to work. Other examples are street cleaners, parking attendants, traffic wardens and bank call centres.
Many people are affected indirectly by trading on Christmas day. They deserve the help that the Bill will give to them as well as to shop workers. The issue goes well beyond an USDAW pressure group. It affects a great many people throughout the country in all walks of life. I very much support the Bill.
11.33 am
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Mr. Gerry Sutcliffe): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr. Jones) on his success in the ballot and on introducing the Bill. It is an important measure.
As did my hon. Friend, I thank my hon. Friends the Members for Doncaster, North (Mr. Hughes) and for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody), who have raised the issue previously. They were unsuccessful in achieving what they wanted for reasons that we have heard this morning.
I respect the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth), who attends the House on Fridays when private Members' Bills are being discussed and advances his point of view. However, I suspect that some people will think of him as the grinch who stole Christmas, or as Ebenezer Bromley.
I pay tribute to the work of USDAW on this issue. I think that the right hon. Gentleman was unkind in his criticism of the union for the way it has tried to support its members and the industry by making Christmas a special day, as hon. Members have said it should be.
John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): Will my hon. Friend take the opportunity to set the record straight by confirming that USDAW has been the fastest growing trade union and the best recruiter of any trade union over the past five years, and exposing the myth that has come from Opposition Members—that it has a problem in recruiting shop workers?
Mr. Sutcliffe: I am grateful for my hon. Friend's intervention. USDAW figures prominently in my ministerial responsibilities for employment affairs, consumer affairs and competition. My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to the growth of USDAW's membership.
The right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst should reflect on his party's opposition, in terms of employment relations legislation, to the union modernisation fund. Other unions could learn from the work that USDAW has done in respect of recruitment. There is an involvement in social issues that applies throughout my portfolio. I pay tribute to USDAW and to all the other organisations that have campaigned to keep Christmas day a special day.
I agreed with the hon. Member for South Staffordshire (Sir Patrick Cormack) when he referred to the Wilde quote about the price of everything and the value of nothing. That counts in this debate and the hon. Gentleman was right to make that point. He had an interesting exchange with the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst about the historical consequences of some of the things that were done when the Conservatives were in government. It was interesting also to hear the hon. Member for North Thanet (Mr. Gale) talking about his name being on the list that was in a former Prime Minister's handbag.
My hon. Friend the Member for Stockport (Ms Coffey) put her finger on the pulse when she talked about the creeping commercialisation that has taken place and which has damaged—
Mr. McLoughlin: Will the Bill give the same legal ruling on Christmas day as that which applies on Easter Sunday? There are certain restrictions on
Easter Sunday. Will the same restrictions be applied on Christmas day—in other words, the same rules and the same regulations?
Mr. Sutcliffe: As my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham said in introducing the Bill, that is the intention. I am sure that he will return to that matter when he replies.
My hon. Friend the Member for Stockport made the interesting and valid point about creeping commercialisation. The right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst was right to support what my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer said about the role of the consumer and the role of the economy generally. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman on that point, if on nothing else.
There have been many interesting contributions to the debate. The hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik) supported my hon. Friend.
The Bill contains only five clauses. There is a limit to what I can say that would go beyond what my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham has said about the measure. I do not want to go over all the ground again but I shall make a few brief remarks. I am aware that there is a great deal of anticipation about what may be happening next.
Paul Farrelly (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend agree that people in the UK already work some of the longest hours in Europe, and that that should not extend to forcing people to work on Christmas day? Furthermore, does he agree that far more women are employed in supermarkets than men, and that even in this day and age they carry the main day-to-day burden of bringing up families? They, most of all, deserve time off on Christmas day. Their families deserve to celebrate the day with them. They deserve the Bill and it deserves to pass through the House.
Mr. Sutcliffe: I agree with my hon. Friend. I am glad that he made the point about women workers. He will be proud of the Government's record on employment relations legislation and the introduction of the social chapter, which have developed and helped the lives of people at work.
As I have said, the Bill has only five clauses. There are 274 shopping days before Christmas, and some people may think that talking about Christmas now is premature. However, we must be aware in the context of legislation that time is an important commodity.
The purpose behind the Bill is simple. It would prohibit large shops—those measuring more than 280 sq m or 3,000 sq ft—from opening on Christmas day. The definition of large shops is the same as that which appears in the Sunday Trading Act 1994. As is the case with that Act, the Bill sets out a number of exemptions from the proposed prohibition. These are farm shops, shops whose trade consists wholly or mainly in the sale of alcohol, pharmacies, shops at airports and railway stations and shops servicing ocean-going ships, motor and cycle supply shops, stands at exhibitions and shops at petrol filling stations and motorway service stations.
The 1994 Act could be said to be one of the precursors of the Bill in so far as it prohibits the opening of large shops on Christmas day when it falls on a Sunday. However, the same prohibition does not apply when Christmas day falls on any other day of the week. I am sure that many hon. Members would agree that Christmas day stands apart from the ordinary days of the week and even other holidays; indeed an indication of this is the fact that many people—myself included—lose track of the days over the Christmas period.
In the debates that preceded Royal Assent to the 1994 Act, it was clear that there was a desire among Members that the prohibition should apply to this special occasion falling on any day of the week. Unfortunately, the very nature of the Act meant that its scope was limited to the regulation of trading hours on Sunday alone. Its provisions could not be applied to the regulation of shops opening on other days of the week and it was therefore not technically possible to extend the legislation to cover Christmas day on any day other than Sunday. I believe that applying a prohibition when Christmas day falls on a Sunday but not when it falls on any other day is an inconsistency that it is right to address; and that, while the House accepted the position in 1994, it is no longer tenable.
Enforcement of a prohibition on Christmas day trading by large shops would fall to local trading standards officers. Again, like the 1994 Act, the Bill applies only to England and Wales. With regard to Scotland, a Bill similar to this was introduced in the Scottish Parliament last year. The Bill has been put out for public consultation, after which the Scottish Executive will consider the way forward.
As my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham has already mentioned, the Government carried out a public consultation in the summer of 2003 on the proposals to keep large shops closed on Christmas day. The vast majority of responses received were supportive of such a law; specifically, 97 per cent. expressed their support for the measures.
It is not difficult to see why these measures would be popular among the general public, and I have been pleased to hear the support from so many hon. Members today. Christmas day, for many in our rapidly changing times, represents a traditional time for celebration and provides a focal point in a busy and often chaotic period. Christmas is a time for the family; particularly, as we all know, for the younger family members. Speaking personally as a father and grandfather—[Hon. Members: "Never!"] It may come as a shock to some. We must not forget the importance of Christmas for parents to spend quality time with their children.
On the latter point, I understand that the majority of those who work in the retail sector—particularly in large supermarkets—are women, as my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Paul Farrelly) said. Many of them are also mothers. We want to ensure that the special nature of Christmas day is preserved and enable thousands of parents to continue to share quality time with their families and friends. In the absence of other legislation covering Christmas day trading, I believe that the Bill is the best way to achieve this.
In the summer of 2002, major retailers were consulted individually on their plans for opening on Christmas day of that year and in future years, to inform
consideration of whether legislation was necessary. To some extent the responses to this consultation from the retail sector itself were encouraging. It was found that the majority of large shops did not open and did not intend to open on Christmas day 2002. Nor did they have plans to open on Christmas day in the near future. However, this seemingly reassuring fact does not preclude the possibility of change were one competitor to decide to break with the pack and open. A significant number of retailers confirmed that their existing plans would be reviewed if competitors were to open. So inevitably, if one major retailer decided to open on Christmas day, the result could be a domino effect.There have been instances since 2000 of large chain stores gauging consumer demand through market testing; that is, either through opening for a specific limited period on Christmas day or by conducting research on consumer habits and preferences in relation to Christmas day. That further validates the need for the Bill, as it seems inevitable that in the not-too-distant future large shops will begin to test the market, leading in turn to knock-on effects across the retail sector.
With this in mind, I believe that this is an opportune time to legislate. This is not only to preserve the traditional character of Christmas day but also, significantly, to avoid legislation representing a new burden for the retail sector. In other words, while it is currently the norm for large shops not to open on Christmas day, they will have little, if anything, to lose by this Bill becoming law. It will simply mean a continuation of current practice and maintenance of the status quo.
I acknowledge that there is an issue of consumer choice here—something about which certain Opposition Members are particularly concerned. This concept is important to our economy, and to some extent it is a reflection of a prosperous society, but it is also important not to be too dogmatic about it when there are other issues to consider. We have to strike the right balance between the rights of consumers and the rights of parents to spend time with their families. In this context, I believe that the right balance is in favour of the latter, as it is far more important to the fabric of our society than the desire to go shopping on Christmas day.
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