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Andrew Selous (South-West Bedfordshire) (Con): The Minister talks about public consultation, and we would all welcome that provided that what the public say is occasionally listened to and acted on, but is he aware that my constituents had to travel some 80 miles up to Northampton in order to give their views on the plans currently in force for south Bedfordshire? Does he think that that is an acceptable distance for local people to have to travel?

Keith Hill: I understand the point that the hon. Gentleman makes, but a regional body must always operate from a particular location, which, in some circumstances, may be as far as 80 miles away, and I strongly suspect that in other parts of the country it could be even further away. I am sorry for the inconvenience to the hon. Gentleman's constituents—I mean that quite seriously—and I dare say that we will be hearing more about their concerns both today and at oral questions on Wednesday, but the important fact is that the opportunity to make the representation is there and that will be strengthened under the Bill in the context of amendments passed in the other place that we propose to accept.

The official Opposition, in their new-found passion for elected regional assemblies—I shall resist further comment at this stage—now apparently want us to delay our reforms until elected regional assemblies are in place, but that would simply delay putting into place the more effective planning system that we so urgently need. There are too many plans and too much confusion. Our reforms will produce a simpler, faster, more flexible system that creates plans and delivers policies at the right level. They are the right thing to do and they are the right thing to do now.

Matthew Green: The Minister has made a slight error. He talks about the official Opposition being fans of regional assemblies. He is teasing them of course, but he would acknowledge that it was a Liberal Democrat amendment in the Lords, which the Conservatives, Cross-Benchers and, I believe, some Labour Members in the other place, voted for, that was the main thrust of the sunrise clause that prevents the powers from being transferred.

Keith Hill: I certainly acknowledge that the Liberal Democrats have shown unusual consistency in this matter.

Our planning reforms will produce a simpler, more comprehensible system. The amendments will, I fear, just cause more confusion. Where elected regional assemblies are established it is right that they should take over responsibility for regional planning. But we should not conflate that with reforming the planning system. That is something that needs to happen now, and for that reason the Government resist the amendments.


 
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Mr. Hayes: The Minister, as ever, made a worthy effort to advance a weak case. The great constitutionalist Bagehot said of Peel that he was a first-rate man with a second-rate creed, and the Minister, rather like him, has struggled to convince this packed House. I see that Labour Members in particular have turned out in considerable numbers to support the Minister, probably mindful of the weakness of the case. He knows that the Bill is at best a wasted opportunity to reform a planning system too cumbersome and bureaucratic for developers, often too insensitive to environmental and aesthetic considerations, and too esoteric for almost everyone. At worst, it erodes the powers of local government and the influence of local people, and the amendments are an attempt by the Lords to improve an unacceptable Bill. That aspect of the Bill lies at the heart of the problem—the weakness of the Bill and the weakness of the Government's approach to local democracy. The proposals that the Lords seek to amend transfer vital planning powers to the regions without providing the necessary democratic accountability. If the Government have their way, regions will exercise planning functions that are currently in the hands of counties, irrespective of whether any corresponding elected authority exists.

5 pm

In the course of our debates, many have suggested—frankly, I am among them—that it is extraordinary that the regions should exercise that additional power. I make no case from this Dispatch Box, either personally or on behalf of my party, for regional assemblies in any way, shape or form, but to transfer such powers to them without democratic legitimacy is undesirable, unpalatable and unacceptable. Yet that is what the Minister is prepared to endorse. With a bitter irony, he told us that his intention is to make the system more democratic. He said that local people should have a chance to make their representations at the most appropriate level; but, as we heard from my hon. Friend the Member for South-West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous), his constituents—of whom he is a doughty defender—will have to make a round trip of 160 miles to make their concerns known. That is hardly a move towards making the system more people-friendly, more accountable and more democratic.

Mr. Clifton-Brown: It is likely that the south-west regional assembly will sit in Exeter. The distance to Exeter from the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Tewkesbury (Mr. Robertson), which is in the northern part of the south-west region, is probably more than 200 miles, so somebody who wanted to make representations to that assembly would face a daily round trip of well over 400 miles. Does my hon. Friend have a view on that?

Mr. Hayes: I try to travel as little as possible, because I have heard that it broadens the mind. Nevertheless, my constituents are in a similar position, because people in Lincolnshire will have to go to Nottingham. From south Lincolnshire, that represents a round trip of well over 100 miles—not quite as great as the distance that my hon. Friend describes, but on poor roads that are, I hasten to add, unimproved by this Labour Government.
 
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Moreover, the people of rural Lincolnshire are, culturally speaking, a world apart from Nottingham. This is not simply a question of distance, but of where people are governed from. In my view, Mr. Deputy Speaker—I know that it is shared by you and by most Members of this House—political power is best exercised as close to people as possible to enable them to have an influence on local affairs. People want to have faith in, and to keep an eye on, those who govern them; they cannot achieve that effectively over a great distance.

So loathsome is this aspect of the Bill, and so appalling is its effect on people's proper entitlements and rightful expectations, that it has driven the Liberal Democrats into my arms. I try not to hold anything against Liberal Democrats, because I do not like to get that close, but it is fair to say that, in this place and in the Lords, the Liberal Democrats and the official Opposition have come together because we share a profound concern about these proposals. It is extraordinary that we face the prospect of powers being exercised by regions, some of which may have corresponding democratically elected chambers and some of which may not: inconsistency can be added to our charges against the Government. The Government are prepared to let matters proceed before they know what is going to happen in relation to regional assemblies. We may end up with no regional assemblies at all, yet these powers will still be vested at regional level and taken away from the local community.

Is it any wonder that the weight of considered opinion outside this place supports the Lords so strongly? I would be interested to hear the Minister's observations about his friends and colleagues in local government who oppose the proposals as strongly as my friends. The Local Government Association states:

The Planning Officers Society, the Town and Country Planning Association, the Civic Trust, the county councils network and the Council for the Protection of Rural England all acknowledge that to be unacceptable, believe that it is unlikely to improve the planning process and have firmly argued the case to the Government. Yet all have been ignored.

The argument is therefore about democratic legitimacy and local accountability but also good planning, because bad planning decisions will result from their being made outside the compass of local people and the orbit where local opinions and sensitivities can be made known. We are also considering the status of counties and planning officers. I agree with the comments of Liberal Democrat peers in the House of Lords. Baroness Hamwee has already been mentioned in our discussions today. She said that the measure would mean that

and become,


 
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In joining together to table the amendments that we are debating, Lords of all parties and none—Cross Benchers were also involved in the move—recognised that there would be

An

would therefore kick in and damage not only local accountability but local professionalism.

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