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The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman and I agree on the substance of most European issues. We agree on the importance of Britain playing its full role in Europe, on the need for this constitutional treaty and on making sure that it is adopted and seen through. But both of us must accept, as pro-Europeans, that the pro-European case has gone by default in many instances. People see that there is some choice or division between the British national interest and Britain's place in Europe. The reality is that when we get to the substance of the discussion of the constitutional treaty, we will be on strong ground. At the moment, the substance of the constitutional treaty is drowned out by the call that we are denying people a say because we are trying to conceal some terrible thing that the constitutional treaty is doing.

I have not changed my mind on the constitutional treaty, but it is the right moment for those of us—in the Conservative party, frankly, as well as on the Labour Benches—who believe passionately that Britain's place is at the centre of European decision making, particularly when Europe evolves into a European Union of 25, 27 and then 28, to make our case. We may believe, rightly, that parliamentary democracy is the normal way in which these things ought to be decided. Personally, I think that it is extraordinary that the Leader of the Opposition has said that Parliament should not debate this matter first. None the less, the hon. Gentleman and I must accept that if we are to make the case, we will have to take it out and make it to the British people.

Mr. Colin Challen (Morley and Rothwell) (Lab): I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his statement and echo the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Clydesdale (Mr. Hood), the chairman of the European Scrutiny Committee. Having read parts of the draft constitution, I can say that it is difficult to determine what was in previous treaties and what is new. I cite article 51—a minor issue on the recognition of religious organisations and so on—as an example, because there is an addition to article 51. The first thing that the Prime
 
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Minister should do is to convince the Opposition not to go into a referendum campaign opposing our membership of the EU. From today's debate, it is not at all clear that they want to stay in.

The Prime Minister: The truth is that a very large part of the Conservative party will not want to say that it is going to withdraw from the EU, but will want to provoke a crisis out of which we will have a choice, one that will be a stark one for this country. I am sure that the Leader of the Opposition would prefer not to be put in that position—he has some experience of government—but the truth, as he knows, is that, in a large part of the Conservative party, the centre of gravity has moved to an extreme Eurosceptic position. That is the case and, after all his remarks about U-turns are out of the way, he will have to confront that within his own party.

Mr. Richard Shepherd (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con): I have never heard an initial statement of such transparent bluster. However, if the Prime Minister believes—as I do, profoundly—that it is a principled decision to have a referendum and not merely a question of tactical expediency, will he explain to the House and the country at large the principles by which he changed his view and is now having a referendum?

The Prime Minister: I explained that in answers to the Leader of the Liberal Democrats and to the hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Mr. Taylor). If we both agree that it is right that the people have the final say, let us get on and have the debate about the issue. It is extraordinary; I have done what the Conservative party clamoured for, month after month, but it is now terribly interested in skewering us on the reasons without getting to the substance of the issue. That is the most telling aspect of the debate.

Mr. Iain Luke (Dundee, East) (Lab): As a fervent believer in further European integration, I reluctantly accept the proposition that we need a referendum to dispel the distortions being put out by the Conservative party. But will the Prime Minister undertake today that, on the successful negotiation of such a treaty, the Government will wage an aggressive campaign for entry into the constitution based on Labour's commitment to the European ideal and on Labour's values of internationalism, and that the campaign itself will not seriously impede the move to a referendum on a common currency for Europe?

The Prime Minister: As my hon. Friend will understand, those are separate issues and we have set out our position on the single currency. However, he is right that we need to get across what the treaty does. The truth is that large numbers of people in this country think that, if we sign up to the draft constitutional treaty, we will give up our right to set our taxation rates, conduct our foreign and defence policy and do those things that a nation state should be able to do. That is simply untrue. I do not know of any country in Europe—especially not, incidentally, the new members coming into the EU, who have only just escaped from the dictatorship of a supranational body—who want to do such a thing. The idea that I or the Prime Minister of
 
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the day will not be able to conduct our foreign policy as we would wish or set out own tax rates, or that our pension provisions will be determined by Brussels, simply are not true. That is why I agree with my hon. Friend. When people know that there is a referendum at the end of the parliamentary debate, public awareness and interest in it will be rather greater.

Mr. David Trimble (Upper Bann) (UUP): I congratulate the Prime Minister on his statement and on the decision, which—for whatever reason it was taken—is the right thing to do. Could I advise him not to get too dug in at this stage on when the referendum should be? There is still a lot to be sorted out yet. We do not know that there will be an agreement. In my view, it would have to be completely rewritten to be a satisfactory constitution. But if there is agreement, it is only right that one should proceed as quickly as possible to have the debate and a decision. The last thing the Prime Minister wants is to be seen to be trying to deny or delay the decision; the words of the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field) were wise on that. May I further advise him not to be too influenced by the rather foolish comments of the chairman of the Electoral Commission, if it should prove convenient to have the referendum on the same day as the general election?

The Prime Minister: On timing, the issue is whether the parliamentary debate precedes the referendum, which is the key thing for us. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that we do not yet have the treaty; it is not yet agreed. There is a general assumption that the Polish and Spanish positions have completely changed since the previous negotiation. That may or may not be true about the Spanish position; I simply do not know. I rather doubt whether it is true, in quite the way people think, about the Polish position. Incidentally, it is not merely Britain that has concerns. Virtually every country around the table has concerns about the existing draft. There is still a lot of negotiating to get right, which is why it is sensible to set out a process at this stage, but I agree that the timetable is open.

Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow) (Lab): As the last of the 69 Labour Members who went into Ted Heath's Lobby to go into the Community and as a hardened veteran of the constitutional arguments that occupied 47 days on Scottish devolution in 1978–79, may I say gently to the Prime Minister that scrutinising temporary legislation is not a quick business? It guzzles up parliamentary time. Has he had a word with the Leader of the House and the Chief Whip on the crucial question of the time available and at what point the guillotine will be put in? Experience of recent devolution Bills has shown that, frankly, huge chunks were unscrutinised and, we now find, unsatisfactory.

The Prime Minister: There is no one in this House who has greater experience of constitutional debates than my hon. Friend, and I shall listen carefully to what he says. The main point is that we must be able to debate the details of the constitutional treaty properly, although I think that in the end that will fall around certain key provisions of the treaty. That will be essential. Let us be quite clear: neither the country nor Parliament will think that we should not sign up to the constitutional treaty on
 
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the basis that we have qualified majority voting on patents, on the rules of parts of the European Central Bank or on many of the other issues on which we are moving towards qualified majority voting. On the other hand, the House will want to be sure that, on the issues that I mentioned, such as taxation, foreign policy and defence, the rights of the nation state remain.

Mr. Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): Will the Prime Minister confirm that the referendum will not be about Britain's membership of the European Union but about the constitution? Will he confirm that, if the British people were to say no, all that would happen would be a renegotiation, as happened when Denmark said no? Will he confirm that, under the existing treaties, no one could force us into associate membership and no one could proceed without unanimity? That is what the treaties say.

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