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Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal): Order. The hon. Gentleman should bring his comments to a conclusion.
Rev. Ian Paisley: All I wanted to say was that those people were brought in, but did it convert them? No. They are at their same old game—going on with their murders. The time has come to call a stop. I welcome what the hon. Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon) said today; it shows that there is agreement on both sides of the House that action, not words, is needed.
Mr. Murphy: I think that the House is very much aware that, despite what we read in the report, Northern Ireland is an infinitely better place in which to live and work than it was 10 years ago, because of the agreement and the advances that we have made since. I have no doubt about that. We no longer have the terrible bomb outrages or the number of murders that we saw in the past, but today we have to deal with something that seriously undermines progress towards a political settlement and the peace and tranquillity of people in Northern Ireland. I do not for one second underestimate the significance of that.
We always indicated that we would act on the recommendations of an independent body. The commission is an independent body—not a Government, but an independent body with international representation—and therefore has different status, which is why we are putting its recommendations into effect. I repeat that were the Assembly up and running there would be different recommendations.
The hon. Gentleman is right to point out that the report highlights loyalist and republican violence equally, right across the board in Northern Ireland. In all honesty, there is no correlation between a death—a murder—and any form of sanction. This is not a murder tax, but one way in which we can express our disapproval of what has occurred.
What is much more significant is that, when people read this dispassionate report by independent experts who have no axe to grind, they will see that the situation set out in the report—drug trafficking, extortion, racketeering, smuggling of fuel and cigarettes and, worse, murder, assaults and shootings—no longer applies. That is what the report outlines. Although
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people in Northern Ireland already know that such things go on, the fact that they are set out in that official report gives its contents great weight.
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. May I ask for shorter contributions from Members, so that more of them can question the Secretary of State?
Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab): The Secretary of State must realise that, although fewer people are being killed these days, if that level of violence and that scale of murder were occurring across the United Kingdom it would be unthinkable for Members to talk about doing so little as taking away a small amount of money that people did not need. What is the Secretary of State's personal view about the fact that IRA-Sinn Fein Members are allowed to come into this House and use its facilities and receive its benefits? Surely, he could take a lead on that; he could say that the House should vote again and take those benefits away. Given the position of the whole IRA-Sinn Fein party and the fact that we have other democratic parties with large majorities, why cannot we go ahead with talks that involve everyone, including the Social Democratic and Labour party, the mainstream Unionists, the Democratic Unionist party and all the other parties that are signed up to peaceful means, and get the Assembly going again with the people who want to be in it—not those who are holding things up because they are into violence?
Mr. Murphy: The talks will go ahead; they have not stopped. The intensive talks that the two Prime Ministers were to lead will not now take place over the next couple of weeks, but further down the line. As I indicated in a previous answer, our view is that we are not yet prepared for that sort of negotiation and discussion. However, that does not mean for one second that we shall not continue to talk about the issues—for example, those we raised some weeks ago in Parliament Buildings about how to deal with the north-south arrangements, the operation of the Assembly and the number of Ministers and so on. All those issues can still be discussed and we shall continue so to do. It is important to understand, however, that unless we get to grips with the issues identified in the report we shall never reach a permanent, settled situation in Northern Ireland, whereby we can have a permanent devolved Administration.
I think that there is a great appetite among people in Northern Ireland for the return of devolution. I am absolutely convinced of that and no one is sadder than I am that it is not yet the case, but we have to keep trying to resolve the difficulties. Even if the parties that are not involved with paramilitary groups were talking to one another—as my hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey) described—we should still have to resolve the problems outlined in the report. We have to see an end to paramilitary activity, and it is vital that that occurs alongside the discussions for a political settlement.
On my hon. Friend's point about the House of Commons, I repeat that the whole purpose in setting up an independent commission was it would have
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legitimacy, which I hope everyone can accept, so that its recommendations would be agreed. Obviously, we shall listen to the comments made by my hon. Friend and other Members and will come back to them at a future stage.
Mr. David Trimble (Upper Bann) (UUP): Is it not a pity that we did not have the report two years ago when we first proposed such a body?
I welcome especially the reference in the report to the IMC's willingness to exclude from office. May I ask the Secretary of State to comment specifically on that? Will the Government now support such action?
As has been said, there is a weakness: the IMC cannot sanction organisations without political representation. That omission is particularly glaring with regard to the Ulster Defence Association, which is a major offender in terms of continuing violence. But does not the Secretary of State have the power to act under the prisoner release legislation? Would not such action be better than the proposed financial penalties?
Finally, I am sorry that next week's talks have been cancelled. Was the cancellation caused by the fact that, after the action that the Government have announced today, some parties were perhaps unwilling to attend?
Mr. Murphy: It is not a cancellation; it is a postponement. Intensive talks dealing with such matters will take place nearer the summer.
With regard to the point about exclusion, the right hon. Gentleman will know that we made it clear on the Floor of the House—I did so earlier today—that if the IMC recommended a course of action, it would be very difficult for me to envisage a situation where we would not accept that, irrespective of whether it included exclusion. We would obviously have to consider that recommendation if it were made. The IMC has not recommended that. It said that it might have done so if the Assembly had been up and running.
Again, on the prisoner release legislation, I return to the point that, yes, we could do all sorts of things, but the purpose of that body is to make specific recommendations to the Government to deal with the issue. The report does the great service of highlighting what the situation is in Northern Ireland today to people—not just those in Northern Ireland, but those in Great Britain, too, and in Ireland—who may not have studied these things as closely and carefully as hon. Members do.
Mr. Iain Luke (Dundee, East) (Lab):
My right hon. Friend is correct to suggest that there has been a movement away from the violence that we saw in previous years, but the statistics are still startling—one death a month and three beatings or shootings a week—and the number of deaths would have doubled in February but for the swift intervention at Kelly's Cellars. Will my right hon. Friend undertake to pass the report to the Leader of the House and the appropriate House authorities, so that proper sanctions can be considered with regard to the access and allowances granted to one of the parties, whose members have access to the House but do not take their seats? There could then be a true set of sanctions to enable a
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realisation that we can achieve a true dialogue in Northern Ireland only by a complete withdrawal from supporting groups with terrorist aims.
Mr. Murphy: I have already indicated that I will certainly pass on my hon. Friend's views and those of other hon. Members who have expressed their views with regard to the House of Commons. Of course, the IMC's members will be able to read in Hansard what the House has discussed today.
With regard to my hon. Friend's emphasis on continued paramilitary violence, he is right to suggest that such violence causes us great worry. What has disturbed me over the past few months is that, each time that I go into the office, the number of so-called paramilitary shootings and so-called paramilitary punishment beatings has gone up and up on both sides, and there is no place for that in a modern democracy.
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