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Mr. Speaker: Order. Every hon. Member is equal—
Mr. Speaker: Order. That includes the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth). I would say to the hon. Lady that she was a Minister at one time and was therefore privy to information that I did not have. She did not disclose it to me. Some hon. Members who took part in this debate were and still are members of the Security Committee and therefore have access to security information. I have told the House that I took soundings before the debate and I invited Privy Councillors to come to the meeting, which was attended by about 60 right hon. Members. To their credit, not one individual leaked any information to the media. I had the very sensitive problem of security to worry about. I will give information to the House as openly as I can, but the hon. Lady will understand that, where security is concerned, I hear of things that I have to keep to myself or to a very few people, because of the sensitivity of the matter.
Mr. Gerald Howarth : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. You will recall that I sought to move that the House sit in private because I was concerned that the Leader of the House would not be able to share with those of us who are not members of the Commission particularly sensitive information, which we might have been able to discuss if the House had met in private. The Leader of the House assured us that we would be able to have such discussions, then opened his speech by saying that he could not disclose such information. Indeed, throughout the debate, he said that he could not share such information fully with Members because of its sensitivity. I submit that he has not played a fair game with hon. Members on this matter.
Mr. Speaker: The House made the decision whether to sit in private or not. The hon. Gentleman asked that the question be put, and I did that. The House must now decide on amendment (a), which was moved by the hon. Member for North Cornwall (Mr. Tyler).
Question put, That the amendment be made:—
The House proceeded to a Division.
Mr. Speaker: I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the Aye Lobby.
The House having divided: Ayes 92, Noes 99.
AYES
Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Allan, Richard
Amess, David
Bacon, Richard
Banks, Tony
Barker, Gregory
Barrett, John
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)
Brady, Graham
Brake, Tom (Carshalton)
Brooke, Mrs Annette L.
Burnett, John
Burstow, Paul
Cameron, David
Cawsey, Ian (Brigg)
Challen, Colin
Chope, Christopher
Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Cotter, Brian
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
Dismore, Andrew
Doughty, Sue
Drew, David (Stroud)
Duncan, Alan (Rutland)
Evans, Nigel
Fisher, Mark
Forth, rh Eric
Gale, Roger (N Thanet)
George, Andrew (St. Ives)
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Gray, James (N Wilts)
Green, Damian (Ashford)
Green, Matthew (Ludlow)
Grieve, Dominic
Hancock, Mike
Hoey, Kate (Vauxhall)
Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)
Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keetch, Paul
Kidney, David
Lamb, Norman
Leigh, Edward
Llwyd, Elfyn
Loughton, Tim
McIntosh, Miss Anne
Mackay, rh Andrew
McWalter, Tony
Mallaber, Judy
Marshall-Andrews, Robert
Maude, rh Francis
Mercer, Patrick
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)
Osborne, George (Tatton)
Paterson, Owen
Pike, Peter (Burnley)
Plaskitt, James
Pound, Stephen
Price, Adam (E Carmarthen & Dinefwr)
Pugh, Dr. John
Randall, John
Robathan, Andrew
Robertson, Hugh (Faversham & M-Kent)
Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)
Russell, Bob (Colchester)
Short, rh Clare
Simon, Siôn (B'ham Erdington)
Skinner, Dennis
Spink, Bob (Castle Point)
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Stunell, Andrew
Swayne, Desmond
Swire, Hugo (E Devon)
Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)
Thurso, John
Tredinnick, David
Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)
Tyler, Paul (N Cornwall)
Tyrie, Andrew
Vaz, Keith (Leicester E)
Walter, Robert
Watkinson, Angela
Whittingdale, John
Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon)
Willis, Phil
Wilshire, David
Winterton, Sir Nicholas (Macclesfield)
Wyatt, Derek
Young, rh Sir George
Tellers for the Ayes:
Richard Younger-Ross and
Alan Simpson
NOES
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)
Alexander, Douglas
Arbuthnot, rh James
Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Bayley, Hugh
Beith, rh A. J.
Bell, Sir Stuart
Benton, Joe (Bootle)
Berry, Roger
Betts, Clive
Blizzard, Bob
Brown, rh Nicholas (Newcastle E Wallsend)
Browning, Mrs Angela
Bryant, Chris
Burnham, Andy
Burt, Alistair
Cairns, David
Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)
Coaker, Vernon
Connarty, Michael
Conway, Derek
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Davis, rh Terry (B'ham Hodge H)
Dean, Mrs Janet
Denham, rh John
Djanogly, Jonathan
Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)
Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
Field, rh Frank (Birkenhead)
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Foster, Don (Bath)
Gibb, Nick (Bognor Regis)
Greenway, John
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grogan, John
Hain, rh Peter
Hanson, David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Heald, Oliver
Healey, John
Hendrick, Mark
Hendry, Charles
Heppell, John
Hermon, Lady
Hill, Keith (Streatham)
Hood, Jimmy (Clydesdale)
Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)
Howarth, George (Knowsley N & Sefton E)
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Jamieson, David
Jenkins, Brian
Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)
Khabra, Piara S.
Kirkwood, Sir Archy
Knight, Jim (S Dorset)
Lazarowicz, Mark
Lidington, David
Linton, Martin
Luff, Peter (M-Worcs)
McAvoy, Thomas
McCabe, Stephen
McFall, John
McIsaac, Shona
Mackinlay, Andrew
Maclean, rh David
McLoughlin, Patrick
McNulty, Tony
Martlew, Eric
Mawhinney, rh Sir Brian
Merron, Gillian
Moran, Margaret
Munn, Ms Meg
Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)
O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)
Pickthall, Colin
Pollard, Kerry
Prosser, Gwyn
Purnell, James
Quin, rh Joyce
Reid, Alan (Argyll & Bute)
Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland)
Ryan, Joan (Enfield N)
Shaw, Jonathan
Spellar, rh John
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Ward, Claire
Waterson, Nigel
Winnick, David
Woodward, Shaun
Woolas, Phil
Worthington, Tony
Tellers for the Noes:
Paul Clark and
Charlotte Atkins
Question accordingly negatived.
22 Apr 2004 : Column 506
Main Question put:—
The House divided: Ayes 112, Noes 76.
AYES
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)
Alexander, Douglas
Arbuthnot, rh James
Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Bayley, Hugh
Beith, rh A. J.
Bell, Sir Stuart
Benton, Joe (Bootle)
Berry, Roger
Betts, Clive
Blizzard, Bob
Brooke, Mrs Annette L.
Brown, rh Nicholas (Newcastle E Wallsend)
Browning, Mrs Angela
Bryant, Chris
Burnham, Andy
Burt, Alistair
Cairns, David
Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)
Coaker, Vernon
Connarty, Michael
Conway, Derek
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Davey, Edward (Kingston)
Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Davis, rh Terry (B'ham Hodge H)
Dean, Mrs Janet
Denham, rh John
Djanogly, Jonathan
Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)
Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
Edwards, Huw
Field, rh Frank (Birkenhead)
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Foster, Don (Bath)
Gibb, Nick (Bognor Regis)
Greenway, John
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grogan, John
Hain, rh Peter
Hanson, David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Heald, Oliver
Healey, John
Hendrick, Mark
Hendry, Charles
Heppell, John
Hermon, Lady
Hill, Keith (Streatham)
Hood, Jimmy (Clydesdale)
Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)
Howarth, George (Knowsley N & Sefton E)
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Jamieson, David
Jenkins, Brian
Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)
Khabra, Piara S.
Kirkwood, Sir Archy
Knight, Jim (S Dorset)
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lamb, Norman
Lazarowicz, Mark
Lidington, David
Linton, Martin
Luff, Peter (M-Worcs)
McAvoy, Thomas
McCabe, Stephen
McDonagh, Siobhain
McFall, John
McIsaac, Shona
Mackinlay, Andrew
Maclean, rh David
McLoughlin, Patrick
McNulty, Tony
Martlew, Eric
Mercer, Patrick
Merron, Gillian
Moran, Margaret
Munn, Ms Meg
Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)
O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter (Burnley)
Pollard, Kerry
Pound, Stephen
Prosser, Gwyn
Purnell, James
Quin, rh Joyce
Reid, Alan (Argyll & Bute)
Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland)
Ryan, Joan (Enfield N)
Shaw, Jonathan
Spellar, rh John
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Trimble, rh David
Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Tyrie, Andrew
Vaz, Keith (Leicester E)
Ward, Claire
Waterson, Nigel
Winnick, David
Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
Woolas, Phil
Worthington, Tony
Young, rh Sir George
Tellers for the Ayes:
Charlotte Atkins and
Paul Clark
NOES
Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Allan, Richard
Amess, David
Bacon, Richard
Banks, Tony
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)
Brady, Graham
Brake, Tom (Carshalton)
Burnett, John
Burstow, Paul
Cameron, David
Cawsey, Ian (Brigg)
Challen, Colin
Chope, Christopher
Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)
Cotter, Brian
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
Dismore, Andrew
Doughty, Sue
Drew, David (Stroud)
Evans, Nigel
Fisher, Mark
Forth, rh Eric
Gale, Roger (N Thanet)
George, Andrew (St. Ives)
Gray, James (N Wilts)
Green, Damian (Ashford)
Green, Matthew (Ludlow)
Grieve, Dominic
Hancock, Mike
Hoey, Kate (Vauxhall)
Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keetch, Paul
Kidney, David
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Leigh, Edward
Llwyd, Elfyn
Loughton, Tim
McIntosh, Miss Anne
Mackay, rh Andrew
McNamara, Kevin
McWalter, Tony
Mallaber, Judy
Marshall-Andrews, Robert
Maude, rh Francis
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)
Osborne, George (Tatton)
Paterson, Owen
Plaskitt, James
Price, Adam (E Carmarthen & Dinefwr)
Pugh, Dr. John
Robathan, Andrew
Robertson, Hugh (Faversham & M-Kent)
Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)
Russell, Bob (Colchester)
Short, rh Clare
Simon, Siôn (B'ham Erdington)
Skinner, Dennis
Spink, Bob (Castle Point)
Stunell, Andrew
Swayne, Desmond
Swire, Hugo (E Devon)
Teather, Sarah
Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)
Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)
Tyler, Paul (N Cornwall)
Walter, Robert
Watkinson, Angela
Whittingdale, John
Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon)
Wilshire, David
Winterton, Sir Nicholas (Macclesfield)
Wyatt, Derek
Tellers for the Noes:
Richard Younger-Ross and
Alan Simpson
Question accordingly agreed to.
22 Apr 2004 : Column 507
Resolved,
That this House approves the installation of a permanent security screen between the Chamber and the Strangers' Gallery.
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