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Mr. Forth: On that point, would my hon. Friend allow me to intervene?

Mr. Heald: If my right hon. Friend will give me a moment, I shall certainly allow him to intervene.

Mr. Forth: Have all the time in the world.

Mr. Heald: I fully accept that I should give way.

The visitor centre has been mentioned. It is the long-held ambition of some that there should be a fully interpretive visitor centre. The House of Commons Commission vetoed that idea, and the report does not include a visitor centre. Many of us believe that what we do in this place is already interpreted a good deal and that if we want to do something positive, we should encourage our constituents to attend and see the work that we do at first hand.

Mr. Forth: My hon. Friend was kind enough to comment on the work of the Committees and particularly of the Chairmen, one of whom, my hon. Friend and neighbour the Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (Derek Conway), is with us. Sadly, our other colleague is not present. Would it not be a good thing if we were able to carry the debate over rather than rush to a premature vote, not least in order that the Chairman of the Administration Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Mrs. Roe) could be with us and enlighten us further?

Mr. Heald: I have full confidence in my hon. Friend the Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup to put the matter in its proper context and to make the relevant points. However, I agree that it is wrong for important debates to be unreasonably curtailed. If the debate needs longer than the time allowed tonight, I would not disagree that proper time should be given for our deliberations.

Although the Deputy Leader of the House opened the debate by emphasising the importance of welcoming our visitors to Parliament, on which I entirely agree, there is an important security background to this debate, as well as to our earlier debate. The number of visitors to the House is high and rising, and the requirements for effective searching and screening are considerable. These factors have led to long queues in the rain for our visitors, which is not a good idea. In addition, we have had the problem of having to screen visitors outside in the sort of tents to which the hon. Gentleman referred, because St. Stephen's entrance is too narrow to accommodate more than two X-ray screening machines, and because there are times when it is right that the screening should take place outside the main building. One advantage of the proposal in the report is that a proper security screening building would be built, with three bays instead of two. That would allow a much quicker flow through, and such a building would be more suitable in security terms.

Andrew Mackinlay: Hon. Members seem to be talking in code. I realise that when we speak about security, we
 
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must be sensitive. Perhaps—[Interruption.] The fact is that the Minister—I do not mean this critically—did not answer my point. I would have hoped that somebody would at least pull me aside and tell me why a building of the sort that is proposed will be better in terms of the safety for our staff doing the screening. Allowance must be made for a building exploding outwards. Locating it in a trough could contribute to casualties. In other words, such a building is not the right one; the motive is correct, but the building may be wrong.

Mr. Heald: I have not been privy to the detailed security advice of which my hon. Friend the Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup is no doubt aware in his position as Chairman of the Accommodation and Works Committee. All I know from my general knowledge is that screening buildings that are used for security purposes usually have thick walls either side and a fairly flimsy roof, as the normal purpose is to get the blast going upwards rather than outwards.

The proposed building is a better security building in terms of screening. Directing members of the public through Westminster Hall rather than the narrow funnel of St. Stephen's entrance should mean that it is possible for long queues to dissipate more rapidly. Although some colleagues take the view that we have to be extremely careful about how we use Westminster Hall—I would certainly not wish it to be used inappropriately—we should bear in mind its history as a building that has been used for the public. I gather that in the early days, one end was used as a court, where there was a throng of prosperous lawyers, and that the other end was a magnet for commerce where shops and trades flourished. That was in about 1340, when the Keeper of the Palace was entitled to rents from those setting up booths or carrying their wares. Pepys was a regular customer in the 17th century, and Betty Martin, a linen draper in the Hall, was one of his many mistresses. In 1666, there were 48 shops, each with a frontage of 8 ft, and all of them had to be removed for coronations, which was apparently very inconvenient. Clearly, we have to respect the dignity of the place, but if it can be put to a use that helps the public, that is a good thing.

On costs, it is difficult to provide buildings in a setting that has been described as a heritage site for the United Nations, partly because they always need to be in keeping. A good job has been done in keeping the proposed building below the level of the wall so that it does not intrude into the architectural profile of the larger building. Furthermore, a security building of this sort is always expensive. My personal view is that the proposal is a moderate and proportional one that I support.

5.33 pm

Derek Conway (Old Bexley and Sidcup): I welcome this opportunity to make a brief contribution to this evening's debate. I am conscious of the time and that many other honourable colleagues wish to participate.

We are considering the joint report of the Select Committee on Accommodation and Works, which I am honoured to chair. I pass on to the House the apologies
 
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of my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Mrs. Roe), who is elsewhere on parliamentary duties. She has spent a lot of time working on this issue and would have liked to put her views directly to the House.

Discussions and conclusions between all parties on my Committee continued in joint deliberations with the Select Committee on Administration, and I place on the record the thanks of my Committee to the Administration Committee's Chairman, my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne, for that Committee's swift and positive action in enabling this joint report to be placed before the House. The prompt, constructive and supportive response of their lordships' Committees is equally appreciated.

The Minister and my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Hertfordshire (Mr. Heald) have most ably set out the background to the proposal. My Committee restricted its consideration to the format of the proposed building and its position, appearance and capability to function. I am sure that the House will have had an opportunity to read the fairly brief but pretty informative document that we produced. In particular, my Committee is concerned with section 4, which deals with the format of the new reception and security building. Right hon. and hon. Members who have genuine doubts about our report's recommendations—I accept that there are some—should cast their minds back to the marquee that recently adorned St. Stephen's entrance, which has been mentioned, serving as the security clearance point for the Palace. It was unsightly and unwelcoming, and it was not pleasant for staff to work in it, but sadly it was essential for a brief period.

Mr. Tyler: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way, because I may not have an opportunity to put questions to other hon. Members later in this debate. Is it also true that we can dispense with the obtrusive, ugly, temporary building on Abingdon green, which is erected to process people for line of route tours during the summer? Am I not right in thinking that this limited proposal, which I accept, would dispose of the need for that temporary building?

Derek Conway: I cannot give the hon. Gentleman a categorical answer, because the matter falls within the purview of the Administration Committee, which deals with the line of route, rather than my Accommodation and Works Committee. The two buildings have separate functions, however, and the temporary monstrosity that is erected over the summer deals with general applicants for the line of route rather than with those who enter the House on business.

Although my Accommodation and Works Committee wants to make visitors more welcome, it was not for us to second-guess the wisdom or otherwise gainsay the security advice offered to the House. Our remit concerned the positioning of the security clearance zone, and in a choice between that awful tent in front of St. Stephen's entrance and the proposals before the House tonight, the proposals are self-evidently preferable. The land gradients on Cromwell green will enable the current aspect to remain, so the view of the Palace will not change substantially. The new building will not detract from the appearance of the gable end wall, because it will be below eyesight. The new building will be traditional in character and will be in keeping
 
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with the overall appearance of the Palace—other hon. Members have already made it clear that the Palace is a unique world heritage site.

As to the new building's function, the long, ramped, undercover lead-in will considerably improve the manner in which queuing takes place. Remarkable progress has been made by the Palace authorities in the past few years to make visiting their lordships and hon. Members less of an initiative and endurance test.

I have sat through the debates on this motion and on the previous motion, and I have discussed the matter in endless Committee meetings. Some hon. Members are concerned whether the House will be less welcoming to the public. I remember travelling on an overnight bus from Tyneside as an 11-year-old with my parents to come through the Palace on what was effectively a museum tour. When the IRA became active, security had to change, and, sadly, such issues keep changing, which is something that nobody likes or wants.

The visitor centre will ensure not only that the security clearance procedure continues to be effective and becomes speedier because of the increased number of routes, but that those waiting to get in do not have stand outside in all the elements. I am fortunate enough to represent a seat that is a dozen miles from the House, but some hon. Members' constituents travel for four or five hours or more, disembark from coaches and stand around waiting for the line of route in our traditional and wonderful British weather. Making this place more accessible and friendly will ease that process.

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