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Orders of the Day
Justice (Northern Ireland) Bill [Lords]
As amended in the Standing Committee, considered.
New Clause 4
'The Secretary of State shall, within 6 months of the commencement of the Act, present to Parliament a report setting out legislative proposals to implement anti-social behaviour orders, child curfew orders, parenting orders and provisions for dealing with racially aggravated offences in Northern Ireland.'.—[Mr. Swayne.]
Brought up, and read the First time.
3.30 pm
Mr. Desmond Swayne (New Forest, West) (Con): I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Mr. Speaker : With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment No. 26, in title, line 12, after 'services', insert
'to require the Secretary of State to present to Parliament a report setting out certain legislative proposals relating to criminal justice in Northern Ireland.'.
Mr. Swayne: I am sure that all Members are familiar with the depressing complaints of constituents about, for example, fireworks being thrown, hoax 999 calls, abusive behaviour on our housing estates, vandalism and low-level disorder. Such behaviour is one of the depressing features of our modern age. With respect to my discussions with members of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, they say that they want to augment their armoury, as we have ours, with antisocial behaviour orders, local curfew orders, the power to remove truants to a designated place and specific provisions on racially aggravated crime, which, incidentally, is up some 30 per cent. over the last year—so much so that the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee has decided to launch an inquiry on hate crime.
Those preoccupations of the police force have an echo in questions that have been tabled over the last year by Northern Ireland Members. Equally, they have an echo in the reports of the Northern Ireland press, which can be easily scrutinised on the internet through that wonderful vehicle, Newshound. Over and above the requirements of the mainland for those orders, there is an added dimension in Northern Ireland in that such provisions would remove the excuse—the sickening veneer of respectability—that some fools attach to so-called punishment beatings, as if that grotesque paramilitary vigilantism is somehow performing a socially useful function.
I have reservations about the implementation of antisocial behaviour orders, although there are a number of reasons for having the debate. First, we must give voice to the frustration of some Northern Ireland Members, not least the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon), who serve on Standing Committees of the House and scrutinise in detail legislation to provide for the implementation of those orders here on the mainland, in the knowledge that they are not doing that
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work for the benefit of their own constituencies, or at least not yet. That has given rise to considerable frustration.
Secondly, there is already a consultation under way. Indeed, I have the Minister's consultation document with me, which requires responses by 1 April. It is a reasonable document in terms of the questions that it sets out. I think, however, that the implementation of antisocial behaviour orders will be controversial for two reasons. The first is our experience of them on the mainland. I am familiar with a number of complaints that they are rather complex and bureaucratic and that, despite being civil orders, they require a standard of proof that could almost apply in a criminal case. They also require lengthy case conferences and the collection of huge amounts of evidence. So, the expectation that implementation of such orders would be a quick and easy process has been dashed.
On average, it takes 13 weeks to secure an order, but six months is not untypical. Detectives can spend more time on an ASBO application than on a serious criminal investigation. A study conducted by NACRO—the National Association for the Care and Resettlement of Offenders—stated that 56 per cent. of ASBOs required more than three hearings. It is therefore understandable that their take-up has been well short of the Government's original estimate of some 5,000 a year. Any legislation will therefore be controversial, as Members seek to avoid such pitfalls in the implementation of those orders in Northern Ireland. That will require considerable scrutiny, for which there will be a desire in the House.
Secondly, implementation will be controversial for another reason: the situation in Northern Ireland differs significantly from that on the mainland. The local government structure is very different, and that seems to be the main thrust of the Minister's consultation document, which explores how the orders will be implemented without the same partners that exist for that purpose on the mainland. Again, that will require considerable scrutiny, for which Members will have an appetite.
I understand that the Government already have statutory powers that would enable them to implement ASBOs and the related regulations by order—by administrative law. That would be a highly inappropriate way of proceeding, given the amount of scrutiny that will be necessary and the opinions that will be a consequence, first, of the experience on the mainland, and secondly, of the difference in the local government structure in Northern Ireland. It would be monstrous to bring such regulations before the House on a take-it-or-leave it, unamendable basis. Clearly, therefore, primary legislation is required. Of course, there are not many opportunities for primary legislation—this Bill was such an opportunity, and the Government have missed it. It therefore seems proper to include a provision such as new clause 4, which requires the Government to report to the House on their deliberations on the progress of the consultation, to ginger up their response and to make sure that they do not miss another such opportunity.
Mr. Edward Garnier (Harborough) (Con):
I do not intend to delay the House for long, but I want to support my hon. Friend's new clause.
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My only quibble with my hon. Friend's new clause is the length of time that he is prepared to allow the Government to prepare their report. It seems to me that six months is far too long. This is not a new issue—we discussed it in the House in relation to England and Wales in the previous Parliament, and it seems to me that the Government should be fully familiar with the issues that lie behind my hon. Friend's remarks and his new clause. I know that the Minister of State is now well in tune with the social and political climate of Northern Ireland, and he must be only too well aware of the issues in the Province, which to a large extent replicate those in England and Wales, as my hon. Friend mentioned.
I am only too well aware of the difficulties of low-level misconduct on our streets. I plan to have a conference in my constituency, which I am chairing, on 21 May, to which I am inviting local police leaders, church leaders, school heads, governors and representatives of the relevant local authorities, to discuss once again—it is the second time that I have held such a conference in the past four or five years—low-level misconduct on our streets in a particular area, South Wigston, which is the least well-off part of my constituency.
As the right hon. Member for Upper Bann (Mr. Trimble) kindly mentioned about 12 Queen's Speeches ago, I went to school in Northern Ireland. He once even sent me a copy of the record of my entry to Friends' school, Lisburn. In those days, it was in the constituency of Lord Molyneaux, as he now is. I know from my experience of Northern Ireland at that time, and from subsequent visits, that some urban parts are demographically very similar to South Wigston. If antisocial behaviour orders are relevant to my part of suburban Leicester, they must be hugely relevant to Northern Ireland. I urge the Government to treat the subject seriously, and to get on with it rather than waiting for the six months with which the new clause over-generously provides them. The people of Northern Ireland are as entitled to civilised behaviour on their streets as those in any other part of the United Kingdom.
Let me make a constitutional point, which was touched on by my hon. Friend. The hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) is indeed an assiduous attender of Standing Committees on Bills and statutory instruments. It is also true that it is rather extraordinary that Northern Ireland legislation is always introduced by second-hand means. There are few opportunities for the people of Northern Ireland to see their legislation discussed on the Floor of the House. It is a pity that the Government did not think this up for themselves, and a pity that they did not introduce ASBOs and the other orders mentioned by my hon. Friend at the time of the legislation applying to England and Wales. I am afraid that all too frequently Northern Ireland gets fag-end legislation, which gives the people the impression that they are in a second-class part of the United Kingdom. They are not, and they should not be treated as if they were. In some respects they are given first-class representation in the House, and I think that they are entitled to receive primary legislation far more often.
I congratulate my hon. Friend on his ingenuity in trying to amend the Bill's long title, and on hanging the new clause on amendment No. 26. Such action is
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overdue. I hope that the equivalent of local authorities in Northern Ireland will not experience the problems of expense and delay that ASBOs incur so frequently here.
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