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Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): I too congratulate the hon. Member for New Forest, West (Mr. Swayne) on his new clause. I agree with much of its intention, as opposed to its detail. It is fair to say that we have our differences with the Government on the details of some of their antisocial behaviour legislation—as has the hon. Gentleman's party, judging by some of our discussions on substantive legislation in the House. In any event, the hon. Gentleman is entirely right to say that what applies on the mainland also has its place in Northern Ireland. The issues are the same in all parts of the United Kingdom.

The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr. John Spellar): What is the hon. Gentleman's objection to ASBOs?

Mr. Heath: The Minister, typically, has immediately elided what I said into a statement that I was against ASBOs. What I said was that I was against some aspects of antisocial behaviour legislation. Some parts I still believe to be unworkable, having seen them theoretically in operation but not actually applied since they were first debated in the House. I hope the Minister will not continue to misrepresent what I said. I think that there is a place for ASBOs, and we have made that view plain here and elsewhere. We see a strong case for applying them in Northern Ireland as well—with the safeguards that we have debated at such length.

3.45 pm

We believe other parts of the Government's programme to be entirely redundant and based more on a wish to attract headlines than to deal substantively with the problems, but that is not a matter that we need to discuss today. The crucial issue is whether criminal behaviour in Northern Ireland that is not related to any specific issues associated with the specific problems in Northern Ireland is to be dealt with effectively by the Government. My argument—I share the view of the hon. Member for New Forest, West—is that it should be. I agree with his comment that it must have been very irksome to the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon), who spent many hours in Committee dealing with such matters in the Criminal Justice Act 2003 as it now is, to find that they did not apply to the constituency that she represents so ably.

I had an interesting time in Northern Ireland over Easter with the Royal Marines in Dungannon and along the border. I do not claim that that makes me an expert on the difficulties of policing the Province but I hope that it has given me at least a superficial insight into some of the problems.

Mr. Seamus Mallon (Newry and Armagh) (SDLP): The hon. Gentleman is right to draw attention to the fact that there is an overlay in terms of antisocial behaviour and the type of behaviour that pertains in some areas of the north of Ireland. Can he say who would implement these orders in certain areas and by what mechanism?

Mr. Heath: As the hon. Gentleman knows, there is a complicated system within United Kingdom legislation
 
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on these matters that involves an interplay between local authorities, the police and other agencies. One of the criticisms levelled by the hon. Member for New Forest, West is that that system is over- complicated. I do not agree. I think that the orders have a specific effect, because, in many ways, they are almost a suspended sentence. I do not agree that we should tinker with the standard of proof required, or the inter-relationship between the agencies, but those agencies should be more ready to use the measures that are on the statute book when the occasion is right. I am glad to note that I have seen them used effectively by my own authority.

I do not want to detain the House. I simply say that there is a need to ensure that authorities in Northern Ireland, particularly the police, have available to them the same tools as those available to authorities on the mainland of Great Britain. We are not discussing matters that are specific to Northern Ireland and therefore one would hope that the Government made quick progress, as has been advocated by many parties in Northern Ireland, at least to implement analogous orders to those in operation on this side of the Irish sea.

Mr. Nigel Dodds (Belfast, North) (DUP): I join others in congratulating the hon. Member for New Forest, West (Mr. Swayne) on tabling the new clause. I welcome the comments of the hon. and learned Member for Harborough (Mr. Garnier), who said that all too often Northern Ireland legislation is dealt with other than by primary legislation. It is welcome that these matters are being dealt with on the Floor of the House by way of primary legislation.

It is important that the Government get a clear message—they should have got it already in this brief debate, which I will not extend any longer than is absolutely necessary. It is clear that, throughout the community in Northern Ireland, there is much concern and fear about the low-level activity that other hon. Members have referred to, and that is characterised as antisocial behaviour. People in Northern Ireland cannot understand why there are provisions such as antisocial behaviour orders for the rest of the country but they are not yet available in Northern Ireland.

That issue was raised on Second Reading, when a number of hon. Members pointed out that the Bill implemented some of the recommendations of the criminal justice review and contained other tidying-up provisions, as recommended by the Chief Constable and others, and that its passage was an opportunity to introduce antisocial behaviour orders. That is an opportunity that the Government have missed, and we should urge them to do as much as possible, as quickly as possible, to introduce antisocial behaviour legislation in Northern Ireland.

I understand that the Minister has undertaken a process of consultation on such a proposal, and I am sure that he will not have received many objections, or heard people say that it is a bad idea. He will no doubt have heard the remarks of the chairman of the Northern Ireland Housing Executive. When I held the position of Minister for Social Development—a responsibility now held by this Minister—I was urged by the chairman of the Housing Executive to consider introducing antisocial behaviour orders as part of legislation under the housing order. However, we were advised that, as antisocial behaviour is a criminal justice issue, it could
 
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not be the subject of such an order and was not a matter for the devolved legislature. Our disappointment that such a provision has not been included in the Bill is therefore all the greater—especially given the scarcity of parliamentary time.

Like others, I urge the Minister and the Government to move quickly on this matter to give the police and the authorities the necessary powers to deal with it. One issue that is constantly brought before me as the Member for Belfast, North—an area that has suffered, and continues to suffer, more than its fair share of antisocial behaviour—is that the police are not only under-resourced in manpower but feel that they do not have the necessary powers to tackle the problem. They are very much in favour of the speedy introduction of antisocial behaviour orders.

The Government should act speedily, and I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say.

Mr. David Trimble (Upper Bann) (UUP): I feel that I should speak, because a number of hon. Members have referred to my hon. Friend the Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) and the points that she has repeatedly made on this issue. The hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) referred to the long time spent debating it under the Criminal Justice Act 2003, during which my hon. Friend repeatedly called for the legislation to be extended to Northern Ireland. The hon. Gentleman will also remember that my hon. Friend received assurances from Ministers that Northern Ireland would be included in that legislation. Those assurances were repeated to her and to me by the Home Secretary and the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, so hon. Members will understand our chagrin when those assurances were not honoured or acted on.

This Minister might preen himself because he is finally taking some action, but his Department has been extremely dilatory—and not only that. I can go further back on the issue—back to 1997, when the then Home Secretary gave me an assurance that the legislation that he was about to introduce on antisocial behaviour would extend to Northern Ireland. Reasons for that not being possible were given—or at least emerged later. The different local government structures have been referred to today. However, the Minister might recall the Adjournment debate on the subject in January, when he said:

"Although there can be no direct read-across, our suggestion is to involve local councils and the Housing Executive in the first instance."—[Official Report, Northern Ireland Grand Committee, 15 January 2004; c. 45.]

That is obvious. It was obvious in 1997, and it did not require any great wisdom to see that that was the appropriate way of proceeding, but no action was taken.

The other excuse offered was the criminal justice review referred to in the Belfast agreement, which commenced in 1998. As published, that review contains no provisions relating to antisocial behaviour, and nor was it ever likely to do so. It was used simply as an excuse for inaction. I hope that the Minister will actually do something about the issue and do it rapidly. When he does, will he bear in mind that he is seven years late? It is a reproach to this Government that they have dragged their feet. They have been very quick on this side of the water because they know how serious the problem is, but they have not bothered with what is an equally serious problem in Northern Ireland.
 
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I congratulate the Opposition on tabling the new clause, which gives us another opportunity to remind the Government of the way in which they have failed the people of Northern Ireland.

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