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Mr. Spellar: The number of appointments incorporates a number of tribunals across the board, which brings it up to about 1,000 appointments in a year. I hope that that clarifies the position. I checked up on it for exactly the same reason as the hon. Gentleman: I had the same concern as him.
I hope that I have dealt with most of the relevant issues. The Bill makes some references to the Lord Chancellor, which will have to be changed in time, but that is a matter for the Constitutional Reform Bill. Other issues arise elsewhere in Northern Ireland legislation, but they are not central to this Bill.
Mr. Hunter:
Do the Government specifically envisage that Sinn Fein would be reflected on the commission? The Minister said earlier that politics was not an issue, but that is hard to understand in such a highly
26 Apr 2004 : Column 663
politicised society as Northern Ireland. Will he therefore clarify whether Sinn Fein will be reflected in the commission or not?
Mr. Spellar: I do not know how I could be clearer than I was earlier when I explained that the relevant criteria for those who applied to be selected for judicial office were gender, age, ethnic origin and community background in the context of Northern Ireland. I thought that I had been very clear and explicit in that regard.
I have already said that we might consider tabling an amendment to section 1 of the Justice (Northern Ireland) Act 2002 to extend the duty to uphold judicial independence beyond those responsible for the administration of justice. The right hon. Member for Upper Bann raised that important matter, which deserves proper attention, in Committee. However, it has been decided that the point would be better addressed in the context of the Constitutional Reform Bill, so we look forward to dealing with it then. I therefore ask that hon. Members withdraw the amendments.
Lembit Öpik: My hon. Friend the Member for Orkney and Shetland has now got out of the fog in Kirkwall and has made it as far as Edinburgh, but I feel more lost in fog than when I first walked into the Chamber. My concern is that the Minister has sought to flannel his way through some questions, particularly those asked by the right hon. Member for Upper Bann (Mr. Trimble) and the hon. Member for Belfast, North (Mr. Dodds), without providing any clear mechanism that would allow us to understand how the mandate in the legislation could be brought to pass. The Minister cannot expect us to take his proposal seriously if he cannot explain the mechanism by which it is to be administered or, indeed, explain who would be held responsible if the commission did not turn out to be as representative as it was supposed to be.
The Lord Chancellor will appoint the lay members, but what process will ensure that his work—together with that of the General Council of the Bar, the Law Society and other judicial bodies—generates a cross-section that is truly representative of the community, as the legislation requires? The Minister cannot simply tell us that it is going to happen or that he hopes various people will make phone calls, have conversations or correspond with each other. He knows as well as I do of the frictions that exist in the north of Ireland that affect these discussions. Simply hoping that when the time comes, those frictions will be put aside—and that the Bar Council, Law Society and others will feel that it is their duty to create a process to fill the vacuum left by the legislation—is not good enough. I understand why the Minister may not want to advance the process. I suspect that it would be very difficult to mandate the organisations into doing so without either appearing draconian or seeming to impose impossible demands on them.
I am grateful to the right hon. Member for Upper Bann for saying that he will support amendment No. 4, if it is pressed to a Division. I am also grateful to the hon.
26 Apr 2004 : Column 664
Member for Basingstoke (Mr. Hunter), who is allied to the Democratic Unionist party, for his highly qualified support. I understand the qualifications that the Minister has made, which I shall deal with in a few moments, but he has singularly failed to convince any Members other than his hon. Friends that the proposal adds up.
The hon. Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon) made some interesting points. At one stage, I felt that he was arguing in favour of the amendments and against the Bill as it stands.
He spoke about compartmentalisation, but the problem is that the Minister is trying to force compartments to work together, which may well increase rather than reduce the very frictions that I am talking about.
I do not feel it appropriate to talk about the privilege of the legal profession. I am not in the law myself and feel no need to discuss how much privilege that profession has had. I am interested in discussing the practicability of what is proposed, and I differ from the hon. Member for Newry and Armagh in that I do not feel that the Minister's proposals are practicable.
I understand that the hon. Member for Basingstoke intends to divide the House on amendment No. 23. I understand his concerns about reflectivity and representative cross-sections. I have had some personal concerns about positive discrimination: I am vulnerable on that since I have two Estonian parents, which means that the Estonian population of the United Kingdom is over-represented here by a factor of 30. [Interruption.] I can hear someone saying that that is easily remedied, but I believe that that is simple jealousy as we near the Eurovision song contest, which Estonia won recently and in which Britain got "nul points".
I take a different view from the hon. Member for Basingstoke on the question of reflectivity. I do not feel that I can support amendment No. 23 for reasons that we have discussed at some length in the past.
The Minister cannot expect us to go along with the Government's procedures when they have not been thought out. He cannot outline in any sensible way—if he can do so at this late stage, he is free to intervene—how he expects to apportion responsibility for an entirely reflective commission. If he cannot tell us how that will happen, he can hardly expect us to support an extension way beyond what was recommended in the report. To do that without cross-party consultation was somewhat irregular. To go further than recommended by experts who have studied the situation in Northern Ireland and to expect us to support that without having gone through any process with all the parties in Northern Ireland is to expect us to swallow too much. I am not aware that any such procedure has been undertaken; the Minister may correct me if I am wrong, but I do not see him getting up so I think that I must be right. In the absence of a plausible defence from the Government of how the proposals will be implemented, I intend to divide the House on amendment No. 4.
Question put, That the amendment be made:—
The House proceeded to a Division.
26 Apr 2004 : Column 665
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the No Lobby.
The House having divided: Ayes 147, Noes 276.
AYES
Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Allan, Richard
Amess, David
Ancram, rh Michael
Arbuthnot, rh James
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Bacon, Richard
Barker, Gregory
Baron, John (Billericay)
Bellingham, Henry
Bercow, John
Beresford, Sir Paul
Blunt, Crispin
Brady, Graham
Brake, Tom (Carshalton)
Brazier, Julian
Breed, Colin
Brooke, Mrs Annette L.
Browning, Mrs Angela
Burnett, John
Burns, Simon
Burnside, David
Burstow, Paul
Burt, Alistair
Butterfill, Sir John
Calton, Mrs Patsy
Campbell, Gregory (E Lond'y)
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies (NE Fife)
Chidgey, David
Chope, Christopher
Conway, Derek
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Cotter, Brian
Curry, rh David
Davies, Quentin (Grantham & Stamford)
Dodds, Nigel
Donaldson, Jeffrey M.
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Michael
Field, Mark (Cities of London & Westminster)
Flight, Howard
Flook, Adrian
Forth, rh Eric
Francois, Mark
Garnier, Edward
Gibb, Nick (Bognor Regis)
Goodman, Paul
Gray, James (N Wilts)
Grayling, Chris
Green, Damian (Ashford)
Greenway, John
Gummer, rh John
Hague, rh William
Hammond, Philip
Harris, Dr. Evan (Oxford W & Abingdon)
Hayes, John (S Holland)
Heald, Oliver
Heath, David
Heathcoat-Amory, rh David
Hendry, Charles
Hoban, Mark (Fareham)
Hogg, rh Douglas
Holmes, Paul
Horam, John (Orpington)
Hunter, Andrew
Jack, rh Michael
Jackson, Robert (Wantage)
Jenkin, Bernard
Johnson, Boris (Henley)
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Kennedy, rh Charles (Ross Skye & Inverness)
Key, Robert (Salisbury)
Kirkwood, Sir Archy
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lamb, Norman
Laws, David (Yeovil)
Leigh, Edward
Letwin, rh Oliver
Lewis, Dr. Julian (New Forest E)
Liddell-Grainger, Ian
Lidington, David
Lilley, rh Peter
Luff, Peter (M-Worcs)
Mackay, rh Andrew
Maclean, rh David
McLoughlin, Patrick
Malins, Humfrey
Maples, John
Maude, rh Francis
Mawhinney, rh Sir Brian
May, Mrs Theresa
Mitchell, Andrew (Sutton Coldfield)
Moore, Michael
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Norman, Archie
Oaten, Mark (Winchester)
O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)
Öpik, Lembit
Osborne, George (Tatton)
Page, Richard
Prisk, Mark (Hertford)
Pugh, Dr. John
Randall, John
Redwood, rh John
Rendel, David
Robathan, Andrew
Robertson, Hugh (Faversham & M-Kent)
Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)
Robinson, Mrs Iris (Strangford)
Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)
Roe, Mrs Marion
Rosindell, Andrew
Ruffley, David
Sanders, Adrian
Selous, Andrew
Simmonds, Mark
Simpson, Keith (M-Norfolk)
Spelman, Mrs Caroline
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spink, Bob (Castle Point)
Spring, Richard
Stanley, rh Sir John
Steen, Anthony
Streeter, Gary
Stunell, Andrew
Swayne, Desmond
Syms, Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, John (Solihull)
Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)
Trimble, rh David
Tyrie, Andrew
Viggers, Peter
Walter, Robert
Waterson, Nigel
Watkinson, Angela
Webb, Steve (Northavon)
Weir, Michael
Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann
Wiggin, Bill
Willetts, David
Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon)
Willis, Phil
Wilshire, David
Young, rh Sir George
Younger-Ross, Richard
Tellers for the Ayes:
Bob Russell and
Mr. Don Foster
NOES
Adams, Irene (Paisley N)
Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)
Alexander, Douglas
Allen, Graham
Anderson, rh Donald (Swansea E)
Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, John
Baird, Vera
Barnes, Harry
Barron, rh Kevin
Bayley, Hugh
Beard, Nigel
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Miss Anne
Bennett, Andrew
Best, Harold
Betts, Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blears, Ms Hazel
Blizzard, Bob
Borrow, David
Bradley, rh Keith (Withington)
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)
Brennan, Kevin
Browne, Desmond
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Byers, rh Stephen
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Casale, Roger
Caton, Martin
Cawsey, Ian (Brigg)
Challen, Colin
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)
Chaytor, David
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)
Clark, Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)
Clark, Paul (Gillingham)
Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & Chryston)
Clelland, David
Clwyd, Ann (Cynon V)
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ms Ann
Cohen, Harry
Coleman, Iain
Colman, Tony
Cook, Frank (Stockton N)
Cook, rh Robin (Livingston)
Cooper, Yvette
Corbyn, Jeremy
Corston, Jean
Cousins, Jim
Crausby, David
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, Ann (Keighley)
Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)
Cunningham, Tony (Workington)
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
David, Wayne
Davidson, Ian
Davies, rh Denzil (Llanelli)
Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Dawson, Hilton
Dean, Mrs Janet
Denham, rh John
Dhanda, Parmjit
Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)
Dobson, rh Frank
Doran, Frank
Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)
Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth
Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
Edwards, Huw
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Ennis, Jeff (Barnsley E)
Farrelly, Paul
Field, rh Frank (Birkenhead)
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flint, Caroline
Foster, rh Derek
Foster, Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye)
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Gapes, Mike (Ilford S)
Gerrard, Neil
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Godsiff, Roger
Goggins, Paul
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grogan, John
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hall, Patrick (Bedford)
Hanson, David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Havard, Dai (Merthyr Tydfil & Rhymney)
Healey, John
Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Heppell, John
Hesford, Stephen
Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia
Heyes, David
Hinchliffe, David
Hope, Phil (Corby)
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)
Howells, Dr. Kim
Hoyle, Lindsay
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Humble, Mrs Joan
Hurst, Alan (Braintree)
Hutton, rh John
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Eric
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate)
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Jamieson, David
Johnson, Alan (Hull W)
Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)
Jones, Helen (Warrington N)
Jones, Kevan (N Durham)
Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)
Kaufman, rh Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keen, Alan (Feltham)
Keen, Ann (Brentford)
Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)
Khabra, Piara S.
Kidney, David
Kilfoyle, Peter
Knight, Jim (S Dorset)
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lammy, David
Lawrence, Mrs Jackie
Laxton, Bob (Derby N)
Lazarowicz, Mark
Lepper, David
Leslie, Christopher
Levitt, Tom (High Peak)
Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)
Liddell, rh Mrs Helen
Linton, Martin
Love, Andrew
Lucas, Ian (Wrexham)
Lyons, John (Strathkelvin)
McAvoy, Thomas
McCabe, Stephen
McDonagh, Siobhain
MacDonald, Calum
McFall, John
McGuire, Mrs Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McKenna, Rosemary
Mackinlay, Andrew
McWalter, Tony
McWilliam, John
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Mallon, Seamus
Mandelson, rh Peter
Mann, John (Bassetlaw)
Marris, Rob (Wolverh'ton SW)
Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)
Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)
Marshall-Andrews, Robert
Martlew, Eric
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Miliband, David
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Morley, Elliot
Morris, rh Estelle
Mountford, Kali
Mudie, George
Mullin, Chris
Munn, Ms Meg
Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)
Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
Norris, Dan (Wansdyke)
O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
Olner, Bill
Organ, Diana
Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Picking, Anne
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter (Burnley)
Plaskitt, James
Pond, Chris (Gravesham)
Pope, Greg (Hyndburn)
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Ken
Quin, rh Joyce
Rammell, Bill
Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N)
Reed, Andy (Loughborough)
Reid, rh Dr. John (Hamilton N & Bellshill)
Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland)
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Rooney, Terry
Roy, Frank (Motherwell)
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Ms Christine (City of Chester)
Ryan, Joan (Enfield N)
Salter, Martin
Sarwar, Mohammad
Savidge, Malcolm
Sedgemore, Brian
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Simon, Siôn (B'ham Erdington)
Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, Angela (Basildon)
Smith, Geraldine (Morecambe & Lunesdale)
Soley, Clive
Spellar, rh John
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Steinberg, Gerry
Stevenson, George
Stewart, David (Inverness E & Lochaber)
Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Stinchcombe, Paul
Stoate, Dr. Howard
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Taylor, Dari (Stockton S)
Taylor, David (NW Leics)
Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)
Thomas, Gareth (Harrow W)
Timms, Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mark (S Derbyshire)
Trickett, Jon
Truswell, Paul
Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Turner, Dr. Desmond (Brighton Kemptown)
Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)
Vaz, Keith (Leicester E)
Ward, Claire
Wareing, Robert N.
Watts, David
White, Brian
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, Malcolm
Williams, rh Alan (Swansea W)
Winnick, David
Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
Woodward, Shaun
Woolas, Phil
Worthington, Tony
Wright, Anthony D. (Gt Yarmouth)
Wright, David (Telford)
Wright, Tony (Cannock)
Wyatt, Derek
Tellers for the Noes:
Mr. Fraser Kemp and
Derek Twigg
Question accordingly negatived.
26 Apr 2004 : Column 668
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