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Mr. Carmichael: There is little in the remarks of the hon. Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon) that we could take exception to, but, having listened to him with care, I have to say that I have some difficulty in marrying his rhetoric with the rather prosaic nature of the widely divergent provisions in the Bill.

I join the hon. Member for New Forest, West (Mr. Swayne) in expressing my gratitude, and that of my party, for the efforts of those who made possible what were good Committee proceedings in many ways, in particular the Clerks and the other Officers of the House. I also thank the other members of the Committee, who dealt very well and responsibly with the issues. There was a remarkable lack of filibustering, as is reflected in the fact that we managed to get through the business without reaching the end of the final sitting.

In that regard, if it is not too much of an embarrassment or a blight on his career, I congratulate the hon. Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker), the
 
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Government Whip, who deals a lot with Northern Ireland business and does much to facilitate its smooth running. He is always conscientious in dealing with all the parties that are involved in Northern Ireland business, and his time and trouble are much appreciated. He is an example for a Whip of what a Minister might be. I say no more than that.

I also thank my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik), who undertook the duties that I had intended to undertake on Report. I have spent the day trying to get here from my constituency; since getting here, I have done little other than regret my success. It is a cliché to say that it is better to travel in hope than to arrive, but when I say that today it is absolutely heartfelt.

The Liberal Democrats indicated on Second Reading that we would support the Government. I can indicate that we will again support the Government on Third Reading, but that is despite rather than because of the Government's efforts since Second Reading. When the time comes to go through the Lobby, I shall look for a quiet moment, take a deep breath, pinch my nose and run through it. I shall not support the Government with any great enthusiasm. I shall support them because much in this Bill is important and because the Liberal Democrats are generally supportive of the creation of an independent judicial appointments commission. We see the importance of the provisions on bail, transfer of prisoners, arrest without warrant in relation to disqualified driving and that great new Labour clarion call, the right of barristers to enter into contracts for the provision of their services.

So much in this Bill could have been done differently and better. The little improvement that had been made in the other place has sadly been reversed. Not only have we not progressed, but in some respects we have gone backwards. We spend a lot of time Upstairs regretting that so much Northern Ireland business is dealt with through secondary legislation and that so much goes through without the proper opportunity for amendment or even full discussion. To that extent, I must agree with the hon. Member for New Forest, West that this Bill could have been much better. There could have been so much more to it and what is in the Bill could yet be so much better. It is merely commitment to the principles behind the important clauses, and general acceptance of the less important clauses, that will take my right hon. and hon. Friends through the Lobby with the Government tonight.

8.57 pm

Mr. Trimble: I associate myself with the comments of the hon. Members for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Carmichael) and for New Forest, West (Mr. Swayne) on the conduct of proceedings in Committee and with the compliments that they paid to the Clerks and the Whip. With regard to the Minister, the most optimistic thing that I can say is that I hope that things will get better, as I do not think that they could possibly proceed in the other direction. However, that is either-way.

We are really considering two Bills—one containing a number of controversial provisions that have been introduced for party political reasons and the other containing a number of modest provisions that are improvements. One can distinguish between the two
 
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because we have this evening debated amendments to the bad part and no amendments other than the Government's tidying-up amendment have been tabled to the sensible part.

With regard to the sensible part of the Bill, I agree entirely with the comments of the hon. Member for New Forest, West: this legislative vehicle having been available, why did the Government not make good use of it? There were plenty of things that could have been done. I will not repeat what has been said, but it is a pity that we have not seen more substance in the sensible part of the Bill.

With regard to the other part of the Bill, I do not want to repeat what has been said, but there are some salient points to emphasise. As I made clear on Second Reading, I have come to the view that the very concept of a judicial appointments commission is bad. The same negative effects might not be seen in Scotland or England and Wales, but it would certainly be bad in Northern Ireland because it opens the door to political influence. Ironically, these provisions remove the important safeguard that existed under the Government of Ireland Act 1920, which established devolution and operated in Northern Ireland from 1921 through to 1971, whereby the most senior judicial appointments were reserved to the Lord Chancellor, and the devolved body had no power with regard to them.

That was a very important safeguard for the independence of the judiciary, but it has been swept away. We now have an appointments commission that will constitute a channel via which political influences will start to seep into the administration of justice in Northern Ireland.

The same criticism can be made again and again. All the amendments that the Minister has made to the bad part of the Bill share a tendency to open the door to political influence in the context of appointments to, and operation of, the judiciary. That is why we have opposed those provisions and will continue to oppose them now. I could say more, but we all know where the provisions come from. The Government would not have included them of their own volition. They result from party political pressure and a sordid political fix. They are not in the Bill on their merits, for they have no merits. That was demonstrated abundantly when the Minister found himself flannelling at the Dispatch Box, unable to respond coherently to the points that were being made to him.

The hon. Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon) reminded us that this was the fifth occasion on which we had considered legislation dealing with justice matters—in the broad sense—during the last few years. It will not be the last. One of the things that lie behind the Bill, and indeed the criminal justice review, is the hope that justice matters can be devolved to the Northern Ireland Assembly. I made clear some time ago my party's belief that there was not a sufficient basis on which we could contemplate devolution of justice matters. I make it clear now that, should such matters arise in future, if my party and I have any say in the matter, we shall insist on significant changes to this and other legislation to ensure that the independence of the judiciary is absolutely clear, that the merit principle in appointments is absolutely clear with no question of political influence and that the criminal law is absolutely clear about the rights of those who appear before the
 
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courts, particularly those confronted by some of the more novel procedures in the Bill, being adequately safeguarded.

If these matters are devolved, we shall find ourselves here again. I hope that on that occasion we shall see a better result.

9.2 pm

Mr. Hunter: I endorse every word said by the right hon. Member for Upper Bann (Mr. Trimble) and I understand that that is also the position of the Democratic Unionists.

As the right hon. Gentleman says, this is a Bill of two parts. The second part, consisting of clauses 8 to 17, is largely unobjectionable. It is uncontroversial and introduces a number of measures that are broadly welcome, and with which we have no quarrel. It is the first seven clauses that inject a strong element of controversy.

In his winding-up speech, the Minister urged us to see the Bill as a whole and the first seven clauses in particular as a further landmark in the evolution of a judicial system in Northern Ireland. He spoke of the need to reflect a changing society. That does not convince. Cynics—among whom I count myself—will say that the first seven clauses serve a political agenda rather than modernising a judicial system. That agenda emerged, to a considerable extent, from promises and pledges made to various parties at Hillsborough in March 2003.

The Minister said tonight, as he said in Committee and as Government spokesmen said in another place, that it was important for the Northern Ireland judicial system to command public confidence.

Frankly, the Government have, by their own criterion of judgment, failed dismally, because the Bill does not command the confidence of the elected representatives of the majority of Northern Ireland. Of course, there is nothing new in that state of affairs. It is another landmark in a process that we have witnessed time and again since 1985.

Not only does the Bill not command confidence but it undermines existing confidence. There are a number of reasons why it does so. One is that it contains an unacceptable move away from the sound principle of equality of opportunity and embraces the discredited concept of equality of outcome. It also enshrines the concept of being "reflective of the community". I shall not repeat the arguments at this stage because I outlined them in the debate but, in respect of both appointments to the commission and of judicial appointments themselves, the Bill is fundamentally flawed. There should be no room for any consideration other than merit when it comes to either set of appointments.

We look forward to the day in Northern Ireland when religious affiliation is irrelevant. The Bill yet again institutionalises sectarianism. Just as apartheid in South Africa institutionalised racism, the present Government's policies in Northern Ireland institutionalise sectarianism and that is unacceptable.

The Bill decreases the power of the Director of Public Prosecutions, in absolute contradiction of the recommendations of the criminal justice review. It
 
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advances the powers of the ombudsman at his expense, which is unacceptable. One of the remarkable things about the Bill is the way in which the Government are cherry-picking from the criminal justice review when and as that review furthers their preconceived political agenda, in particular when it meets and coincides with the demands of the SDLP.

The Bill devolves the justice system before devolved government has been re-established. We note also the Minister's persistent refusal to give an unambiguous yes or no answer on whether the Government envisage Sinn Fein being "reflected" in the composition of the commission. In all, the Bill marks a further step in the politicisation of Northern Ireland's judicial system. That is why we will vote against it.

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