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Mr. John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) (Con): As ever, the Minister for Housing and Planning makes an eloquent and persuasive case. He started by listing the concessions that the Government have already made. I needed no convincing of what a decent man he is, or that he is prepared to listen to the Opposition's arguments, which are also persuasive, as he has acknowledged. He is moving ever closer to the position articulated by Conservatives and even by Liberal Democrats. Indeed, it is such a persuasive case that it has driven the Liberal Democrats and us—I speak personally in this respect—into a union. Members of the House who know me well will know how difficult that is to achieve, and how important these matters must therefore be.
The Minister says that his whole strategy would be destroyed if he accepted the Lords amendments. That is not true. The proposals on sub-regional strategies, as requested by Liberal Democrat and Conservative Members in the other place, would add to the Government's intent of producing a system that is coherent and consistent. He says that they will lead to obfuscation and delay. If the price is a system that is effective, truly representative, and that allows properly for the sensitivities and considerations of localities to be taken into account in drawing up these plans, it is a price that we, as democrats, are obliged to pay. Democracy is
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often inconvenient and sometimes slower than systems that are less democratic, but it is none the worse for that. All Members of the House must defend the right of ordinary people to have their say in these matters, which affect the quality of their lives so directly, and I know that the Minister would be first in the vanguard of that defence. He therefore, ultimately, makes an unconvincing case.
I find—[Interruption.] I see that the Minister is taking advice from a senior colleague, and perhaps he is going to move even closer to our position. I cannot believe that with his good offices, and with the spirit in which he has spoken to the House today, knowing that the other place is ever willing to try to find a way through these problems, a solution cannot be found. Perhaps it will not be found until this House—or the Opposition at least—has taken the opportunity to press these matters to a vote.
2.30 pm
The Minister must, I think, acknowledge that, not for the first time, the Lords speak for the people and the Government speak merely for themselves. That is not just my view. Perhaps surprisingly, the Minister's noble Friend Lord Rooker said in the other place
"Noble Lords are much more in touch in some ways with what is happening than is sometimes the case elsewhere in this building."
He recognised that the Lords are often able to articulate a case on behalf of the common man in a way that is sometimes lost to those who have grown grand and privileged on the luxuries and benefits of office. That is not, of course, a position in which we find ourselves, but perhaps one day we shall be subject to the same temptations. I hope that we will resist them in true Tory spirit.
I note that when word goes out around the Palace that Hill and Hayes are talking again, the Tea Rooms and Restaurants empty and Members flood the Chamber. The Labour Bench is particularly well populated for this debate, by Members who knew that they would be subject to a rare treat in the form of the Minister's peroration.
The Minister accused me of cynicism, but let me say this: the Lords have properly identified the substantial democratic deficit that lies at the heart of the Government's intentions. I hold no candle for regional assemblies, but I do make a robust case for democratic legitimacy and proper accountability, and that is what we are really debating today.
Three points need to be made. To avoid repetition, for as a matter of habit I try to do that—for the sake of clarity and the record I should perhaps say that, as a matter of habit, I avoid repetition—let me say that the case that the Lords make is threefold.
First, we have the argument about democratic legitimacy, well made both here and there. The idea that we should transfer or indeed confirm powers—I know the Minister makes the case that they were originally given to regions by a Conservative Government—to bodies on which there are no elected people seems to me unacceptable, and I suspect that it is unacceptable to many Labour Members. We heard, for example, the concerns of the hon. Member for North-West
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Leicestershire (David Taylor), who often speaks and, as the Minister says, votes with his conscience rather than merely on the instructions of heavy-handed Government Whips. The hon. Member for Gillingham (Paul Clark) shakes his head. He is not one of those; he is one of the more human faces at the Whips Office. There must, however, be others who are altogether more heavy-handed.
The second key issue is that of effective accountability. That means having access to where decisions are made, and having faith in the process. The further we move the exercise of political power from the people, the less trust the people are likely to have in the exercise of political power. The plans must be made close to people, and people's loyalty, faith and adherence must be inspired. They must believe in the plans. For, as my noble Friend Lord Hanningfield said in the other place, this is a distinctly personal matter. That gentleman, who has a distinguished record both in the upper House and in local government, said:
"There is no more personal thing in local government than planning. The Government should not think that they can ignore the democratic processes."
Lord Marlesford, who spoke persuasively, said:
"the Government somehow believe that the higher the level at which strategic planning is done, the better."—[Official Report, House of Lords, 26 April 2004; Vol. 660, c. 565–9.]
In fact, the opposite is true. It is of course important for us to have a bigger view, but that bigger view must take proper account of the concerns of local communities; and the lower down the system those concerns can be expressed effectively, the better. The involvement of local communities confers legitimacy on the plans that ultimately emerge.
That brings me to the third issue: sensitivity to local people, understanding of local needs, and responsiveness from a system that, as the Minister has acknowledged on previous occasions, is often seen as esoteric, bureaucratic and excessively burdensome—one might even say Byzantine.
We remain unconvinced by the Government's case, although we welcome the Minister's spirit and tone. I do not find that surprising. I have found the right hon. Gentleman to be a receptive Minister who genuinely listens to a proper case put from any part of the Chamber. Now is his chance to show just how responsive and receptive he is by taking on board arguments that he has acknowledged to have been well made.
I know that the hon. Member for Ludlow (Matthew Green) wants to speak. I look forward—I almost said "for once", but that would have been uncharitable—to his speech, because I know he has many good and useful points to make. Let me end on this note. As I said, the Minister accused me of cynicism; but he knows that romantics like me are immune to cynicism. This is not a matter of cynicism. It is a matter of good government, good planning and good leadership. I hope that what the Minister does today and hereafter will show all three.
I recommend to my colleagues that in this instance we support the Lords. We will be voting "No", not because we do not think that there is good will, but because we feel that the time has come to stand our ground on these
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important matters in defence of the common people of our country. I hope that, ultimately, the Minister will reach the same conclusion.
Matthew Green (Ludlow) (LD): I, too, congratulate the Minister on his approach, not just in the past week but since he took charge of the Bill. We could say that considerable concessions have been made; we could say, if we were being charitable, that people of like mind have reached agreement. There has been movement on the Government's part, and also on the Opposition's part, since we embarked on the Bill nearly 18 months ago. Some of us have served all 18 months, and it seems a very long time.
The hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr. Hayes) and I agree on the fact that this is about creating a good planning system. As the Minister will know, a good planning system carries the confidence of the people who use it, and people are most confident when a system is democratic. The Minister cannot suggest in any circumstances that the Government's proposals or the amendment make this system democratic.
Rather than going over ground that we have been over many times, I want to comment on the Government's proposed amendment in lieu of Lords amendment 1B. I am afraid that, for once, the Minister has produced a smokescreen. The Bill proposes that 30 per cent. of members of the regional planning body should come from the business sectors rather than the councils. It is now being suggested that 60 per cent. should come from the councils, so there is presumably 10 per cent. of flexibility. That will mean that many councils that are losing powers—the primary tier, the county councils, the metropolitans and the unitaries—will not be represented. Indeed, the Minister's amendment includes district councils, which are not losing powers. It is an odd amendment, which for once lacks coherence and intellectual clarity.
The Minister knows that there is potential for common ground, but his amendment is not that common ground. I do not think that he will be surprised to hear me say that. He will, I believe, struggle to justify the continued removal of powers from directly elected councils, and the granting of those powers to, at best, a partly indirectly elected regional planning body, which will have a considerable influence on what happens. Democracy is not, perhaps, always the quickest form of government, but it is the best that we have, and I am surprised that the Minister is prepared to overlook democracy in the name of expediency, which is exactly what is being proposed.
There is some room for common ground, and the Minister knows that a sensible compromise could be reached. I welcome the fact that he is prepared to reconsider the other part of this group of Lords amendments, which affects the sub-regional plans, and that again shows the spirit that has been evident from him so far. If he will show the same sort of flexibility on the Lords reason, then we are very close to considerable agreement on the Bill. However, the Minister will have to move further than the amendment that the Government have tabled. That does not move; it just
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states what exists on the ground in regional planning bodies at the moment, and does not in any way increase their democratic involvement.
I hope that the Minister thinks again. We, too, will vote against the Government's insistence on disagreement and their amendment in lieu. I hope that he will take the opportunity before this matter returns to the Lords again to reflect on the position that has been outlined, and see whether a more sensible compromise can be reached.
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