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Keith Hill: I feel that I need to respond briefly to the points that have been made. I first turn to the remarks of the hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr. Hayes), who dwelt on democratic accountability. I am pretty certain that I am accurate in saying that he claimed that our proposals would mean a transfer of powers to bodies with no elected members. For reasons that I shall demonstrate, there is no transfer to the regional bodies in the proposals, because the powers are already there. I contend that we are introducing a process that is more transparent and has more community involvement. The regional spatial strategy will be tested in public by examination in public—again, evidence of the extent to which we are introducing a process that is more transparent and, I assert, more democratic than that which prevails at present.
I remind the hon. Gentleman that the existing bodies have elected members. They all have a majority of elected members. Indeed, on six of the eight regional chambers that act as regional planning bodies, the Conservative party has the largest number of members. They are hardly institutions immune to the expression of representative opinion at local level, opinion that might be not entirely sympathetic with Government views on regional development.
Matthew Green: Surely even the Minister will admit that that is a somewhat cheap jibe at the Conservatives—I say that as a Liberal Democrat—for the simple reason that we are talking about the principle of whether something is democratic, not about which party currently has the largest number of councillors on an indirectly elected body. Those members are elected to their council, but then appointed to a regional planning body, not necessarily from all the councils in turn. The Minister should admit that he is not being fair in his reflection.
Keith Hill:
My comment was not intended as a jibe, and was more of a reminder of the opportunities that exist. I accept that there would be an even more compelling case if there were to be elected regional assemblies, and I certainly welcome the Conservative party's new-found enthusiasm in the amendments for elected regional assemblies. They will be aware that elected regional assemblies are not yet proposed for the entirety of England. Although we anticipate the success of the referendums for regional assemblies in the northern parts of the country, we recognise that there might be some slight delay in their introduction elsewhere, and it is in the regions without elected assemblies that it would be nonsense to scrap the regional planning function that was the child of Conservative Government policy making way back in 1990.
29 Apr 2004 : Column 1045
2.45 pm
I turn to the charge of loss of democracy in the new system made by the hon. Member for Ludlow (Matthew Green). What really matters to people is that they can have their say, and have their views listened to in the planning process. He will know that central to our reforms at regional and local level is greater community involvement, and he has welcomed that on many occasions. Our amendment would require the regional planning body, as he knows, to prepare, publish and comply with a statement of its policies for involving interested parties in preparing draft revisions of the regional spatial strategy. Draft regulations require the regional planning bodies to consult a wide range of bodies while the draft revision of the regional spatial strategy is being prepared and after it has been published.
Matthew Green: The logic of what the Minister has just said is that an autocratic regime that consults its citizens is better than a democratic one, and that consultation is a substitute for democracy. I am sure that he did not mean to say that to the House.
Keith Hill: I certainly did not mean to say that, and indeed I did not. Of course consultation is no substitute for democracy. However, greater consultation and greater community involvement, within the framework of a democratically accountable process—which is exactly what our planning reform agenda and our regional spatial strategy proposals are all about—certainly strengthens democratic and popular involvement in the process. That is not there at present, but will be introduced by these measures.
Let me remind the hon. Gentleman that clause 7 provides for independent public examination of the draft revision of the regional spatial strategy, during which people will be invited to speak. That will take place in all but exceptional circumstances. I have mentioned draft planning policy statement 11, which sets out ways in which the regional planning body can and should involve stakeholders and the wider community on an ongoing basis, as initial ideas and options are turned into firm proposals.
We are not squeezing democracy out of the system. Under the Bill's provisions, as now, it will be for the regional planning body to propose the number of new dwellings that should be provided in its region. We are simply changing the basis on which those figures can be allocated down to the next level, and instead of that being determined by county boundaries, regional planning bodies will be able to make allocations on a sub-regional basis, taking account of housing market needs.
We are at the end of an exceptionally long process with the Bill, which was first introduced to the House in December 2002, and that process has been a great pleasure. The Under-Secretary of State, Office of the Deputy Prime Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), is to pick up the reins and steer this great carriage forward. I regret the fact that the Opposition parties continue to oppose these measures, but I hope that the winning post is now in sight, and that, with a further burst, the endgame can be secured.
29 Apr 2004 : Column 1046
Question put, That this House insists on its disagreement with the Lords in the said amendment.
The House divided: Ayes 235, Noes 140.
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Adams, Irene (Paisley N)
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)
Allen, Graham
Anderson, rh Donald (Swansea E)
Anderson, Janet (Rossendale & Darwen)
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, John
Bailey, Adrian
Baird, Vera
Barnes, Harry
Barron, rh Kevin
Bayley, Hugh
Beard, Nigel
Benton, Joe (Bootle)
Blizzard, Bob
Boateng, rh Paul
Borrow, David
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)
Bradshaw, Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, rh Nicholas (Newcastle E Wallsend)
Brown, Russell (Dumfries)
Browne, Desmond
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Byers, rh Stephen
Caborn, rh Richard
Cairns, David
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Caplin, Ivor
Caton, Martin
Challen, Colin
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)
Chaytor, David
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)
Clark, Paul (Gillingham)
Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & Chryston)
Clelland, David
Clwyd, Ann (Cynon V)
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ms Ann
Cohen, Harry
Coleman, Iain
Connarty, Michael
Cooper, Yvette
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cousins, Jim
Cranston, Ross
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
David, Wayne
Davidson, Ian
Davies, rh Denzil (Llanelli)
Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Dhanda, Parmjit
Dismore, Andrew
Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)
Dobson, rh Frank
Donohoe, Brian H.
Drew, David (Stroud)
Drown, Ms Julia
Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Edwards, Huw
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Ennis, Jeff (Barnsley E)
Farrelly, Paul
Field, rh Frank (Birkenhead)
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Foster, Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye)
Foulkes, rh George
Gardiner, Barry
George, rh Bruce (Walsall S)
Gerrard, Neil
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Gilroy, Linda
Godsiff, Roger
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grogan, John
Hain, rh Peter
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hall, Patrick (Bedford)
Hanson, David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Healey, John
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Hendrick, Mark
Hepburn, Stephen
Heppell, John
Hesford, Stephen
Heyes, David
Hill, Keith (Streatham)
Hope, Phil (Corby)
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, George (Knowsley N & Sefton E)
Howells, Dr. Kim
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Hutton, rh John
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Eric
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate)
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Johnson, Alan (Hull W)
Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)
Jones, Helen (Warrington N)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Jones, Kevan (N Durham)
Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)
Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)
Kaufman, rh Gerald
Keen, Alan (Feltham)
Kelly, Ruth (Bolton W)
Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)
Khabra, Piara S.
Kidney, David
Kilfoyle, Peter
King, Andy (Rugby)
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lammy, David
Lawrence, Mrs Jackie
Lepper, David
Lewis, Terry (Worsley)
Linton, Martin
Love, Andrew
Luke, Iain (Dundee E)
McAvoy, Thomas
McCabe, Stephen
McDonagh, Siobhain
McFall, John
McGuire, Mrs Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
Mackinlay, Andrew
Mactaggart, Fiona
McWalter, Tony
McWilliam, John
Mahmood, Khalid
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John (Bassetlaw)
Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)
Marshall-Andrews, Robert
Martlew, Eric
Meacher, rh Michael
Moffatt, Laura
Moonie, Dr. Lewis
Moran, Margaret
Morgan, Julie
Mountford, Kali
Mullin, Chris
Munn, Ms Meg
Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)
Murphy, rh Paul (Torfaen)
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
Norris, Dan (Wansdyke)
O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Perham, Linda
Picking, Anne
Pickthall, Colin
Plaskitt, James
Pope, Greg (Hyndburn)
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Rammell, Bill
Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N)
Raynsford, rh Nick
Reid, rh Dr. John (Hamilton N & Bellshill)
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Roy, Frank (Motherwell)
Ruddock, Joan
Ryan, Joan (Enfield N)
Sarwar, Mohammad
Sawford, Phil
Sedgemore, Brian
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Short, rh Clare
Simon, Siôn (B'ham Erdington)
Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, rh Andrew (Oxford E)
Smith, Angela (Basildon)
Smith, Geraldine (Morecambe & Lunesdale)
Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Soley, Clive
Spellar, rh John
Steinberg, Gerry
Stevenson, George
Stinchcombe, Paul
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Tami, Mark (Alyn)
Taylor, Dari (Stockton S)
Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)
Thomas, Gareth (Harrow W)
Todd, Mark (S Derbyshire)
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Dr. Desmond (Brighton Kemptown)
Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)
Vaz, Keith (Leicester E)
Walley, Ms Joan
Ward, Claire
Wareing, Robert N.
Watson, Tom (W Bromwich E)
Watts, David
White, Brian
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, Malcolm
Williams, rh Alan (Swansea W)
Winnick, David
Woodward, Shaun
Woolas, Phil
Worthington, Tony
Wright, David (Telford)
Wright, Tony (Cannock)
Wyatt, Derek
Tellers for the Ayes:
Mr. Fraser Kemp and
Ms Bridget Prentice
NOES
Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Allan, Richard
Arbuthnot, rh James
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Bacon, Richard
Baldry, Tony
Barker, Gregory
Baron, John (Billericay)
Barrett, John
Bellingham, Henry
Bercow, John
Beresford, Sir Paul
Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)
Brake, Tom (Carshalton)
Brazier, Julian
Breed, Colin
Browning, Mrs Angela
Burnett, John
Burns, Simon
Burstow, Paul
Cable, Dr. Vincent
Campbell, Gregory (E Lond'y)
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies (NE Fife)
Carmichael, Alistair
Cash, William
Chidgey, David
Clappison, James
Clarke, rh Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Collins, Tim
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Cotter, Brian
Davey, Edward (Kingston)
Davies, Quentin (Grantham & Stamford)
Djanogly, Jonathan
Dodds, Nigel
Donaldson, Jeffrey M.
Duncan, Alan (Rutland)
Duncan Smith, rh Iain
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Michael
Field, Mark (Cities of London & Westminster)
Flook, Adrian
Foster, Don (Bath)
Francois, Mark
Garnier, Edward
George, Andrew (St. Ives)
Gibb, Nick (Bognor Regis)
Gidley, Sandra
Gillan, Mrs Cheryl
Goodman, Paul
Gray, James (N Wilts)
Green, Matthew (Ludlow)
Greenway, John
Grieve, Dominic
Hague, rh William
Hammond, Philip
Harris, Dr. Evan (Oxford W & Abingdon)
Harvey, Nick
Hawkins, Nick
Hayes, John (S Holland)
Heald, Oliver
Heath, David
Hendry, Charles
Hermon, Lady
Hoban, Mark (Fareham)
Hogg, rh Douglas
Holmes, Paul
Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)
Hunter, Andrew
Jack, rh Michael
Jenkin, Bernard
Johnson, Boris (Henley)
Knight, rh Greg (E Yorkshire)
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lamb, Norman
Laws, David (Yeovil)
Lewis, Dr. Julian (New Forest E)
Liddell-Grainger, Ian
Lidington, David
Lilley, rh Peter
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter (M-Worcs)
McIntosh, Miss Anne
Maclean, rh David
McLoughlin, Patrick
Maples, John
May, Mrs Theresa
Mercer, Patrick
Mitchell, Andrew (Sutton Coldfield)
Moore, Michael
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Öpik, Lembit
Osborne, George (Tatton)
Paice, James
Price, Adam (E Carmarthen & Dinefwr)
Prisk, Mark (Hertford)
Reid, Alan (Argyll & Bute)
Robathan, Andrew
Robertson, Hugh (Faversham & M-Kent)
Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)
Robinson, Mrs Iris (Strangford)
Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)
Roe, Mrs Marion
Rosindell, Andrew
Ruffley, David
Russell, Bob (Colchester)
Selous, Andrew
Shephard, rh Mrs Gillian
Shepherd, Richard
Simmonds, Mark
Simpson, Keith (M-Norfolk)
Smyth, Rev. Martin (Belfast S)
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spink, Bob (Castle Point)
Spring, Richard
Stanley, rh Sir John
Steen, Anthony
Streeter, Gary
Stunell, Andrew
Swayne, Desmond
Syms, Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, John (Solihull)
Taylor, Dr. Richard (Wyre F)
Tonge, Dr. Jenny
Tredinnick, David
Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)
Tyrie, Andrew
Waterson, Nigel
Watkinson, Angela
Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann
Willetts, David
Williams, Roger (Brecon)
Willis, Phil
Wilshire, David
Yeo, Tim (S Suffolk)
Young, rh Sir George
Younger-Ross, Richard
Tellers for the Noes:
Mr. John Randall and
Mr. Hugo Swire
Question accordingly agreed to.
29 Apr 2004 : Column 1048
Lords amendment disagreed to.
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