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Dr. Palmer: I must admit to being slightly puzzled by the amendment. Most of us would not rank the introduction of annual reports on progress, which came soon after the election, among the magnificent achievements of the Labour Government. I do not remember the Conservative party being at the forefront of those welcoming the publication of such documents. I see that the amendment would require local authorities to identify
"any achievements beyond the statutory minimum in pursuit of warm homes and energy conservation."
That appears to be an invitation to local authorities to wax lyrical about their splendid achievements in the area at the expense of the people who pay for their time.
Brian White: One of the reasons that the provision to make sure that local authorities report was included in my Sustainable Energy Act 2003 is that a number of local authorities are lagging behind. Although the best local authorities are doing an excellent job, a number need to be dragged into the arena to deliver some of the programmes that we all want.
Dr. Palmer: I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. We must strike a balance between central direction, which will achieve the necessary progress, including in areas in which local authorities might think that they have other priorities, and allowing a degree of local flexibility. What worries me about the amendment is that basically it does not raise the minimum standards, and nor does it apply any standard reporting function that would enable us to collect statistics or assessments nationally. It is simply an invitation to local authorities to chat about their achievements. Given the intention of the Bill, I honestly do not think that anything will be achieved by that.
I accept fully that the hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr. Hayes) who moved the amendment is motivated entirely by wanting to stimulate the best possible practice in local authorities and to encourage them to take an opportunity to boast about their achievements. My experience of local authorities—except mine, of course—is that they are only too keen to boast about their achievements at great length, which is perhaps a general characteristic of political organisations. We do not therefore need statutory encouragement for them to do so.
Mr. Hayes: In order that the hon. Gentleman might abbreviate his remarks, may I make absolutely clear what I thought that I had made sufficiently clear by inference earlier—that this is a probing amendment? It is designed to press the Government to move closer to the standards that are absolutely necessary if they are to meet their 2010 targets. In the hope that the hon. Gentleman might recognise that, and be brief, I say to him that 1.4 million social sector homes in England are failing to meet the decent home standards, and the vast majority of those—about 80 per cent., or 1.1 million—fail on thermal insulation grounds. On that basis, the Government will not meet the 2010 targets, and we are pressing the Minister, in an extraordinarily moderate way, a little further towards his own target.
Dr. Palmer: I appreciate the hon. Gentleman's wish to get away early or deal with whatever other pressing business he may have, but I feel that we should look at the amendments as they stand. Although he has hinted that he may be thinking of withdrawing amendment No. 1, which he would be wise to do, if he tables an amendment, we must be able to discuss it on its own terms.
We recognise the need to make progress with objectives to which we all at least pay lip service and that I hope we would wholeheartedly support, but what is
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required is a steady increase in minimum standards, accompanied by the flexibility that we discussed on new clause 1. We should not encourage local authorities simply to make statements that are not viable in cash terms.
In a previous life, I worked in statistics. I remember attempting to assess the progress of projects, and I remember that each of those reporting reported in a different way. That is a statistical nightmare with which everyone in Government is familiar, and I would not like to contribute to it now. I hope that the hon. Gentleman, whose objectives I respect and support, will withdraw his amendment.
Mr. Stunell: Some tempting bait has been dangled in the water with mention of the Sustainable Energy Act 2003, which began as a private Member's Bill promoted by the hon. Member for Milton Keynes, North-East (Brian White). The amendment is clearly a good thing in the sense that motherhood and apple pie is a good thing, and I approve of the idea of a report on progress, but there are one or two problems with it. For one thing, it would amend clause 6, not clause 5. Clause 5 deals with reports; clause 6 concerns the lodging of documents for inspection.
I wish the hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr. Hayes) had had an opportunity to try out the idea in Committee, as the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, North (Ms Walley) did with her proposals. That would have enabled us to deal with a provision that worked and was appropriately placed. The Minister might still be shaking his head, but at least the amendment would relate to the right part of the Bill. If it had referred to clause 5, I might have felt able to be rather more vigorous in my defence of the hon. Gentleman's defence of the hon. Member for Milton Keynes, North-East.
There is no doubt that we need more progress in the implementation of the 2003 Act. Along with other Members in all political parties, I have criticised the Government for not setting proper targets under the Act and for all the shortfalls in performance, but sadly the amendment is not a viable means of dealing with that.
I hope that we have made useful points. I hope that the Minister will go back and say, "They gave me hell over this—what are we doing?" The Government need a good nudge. They need to be reminded that Members throughout the House are concerned about the issue, and feel that the Government have been somewhat lethargic. I also hope, however, that the hon. Gentleman will not press his amendment, which I fear might jeopardise the wider project represented by the Bill.
Phil Hope: For reasons given by various Members today and for others that I will explain shortly, the Government will oppose the amendment because we think it unnecessary. That does not mean that we are not keen to pursue our targets relating to fuel poverty and warm homes. I realise that this is a probing amendment, and I will respond to it in those terms. As for my being given hell this morning, I prefer to say that Members have given me a good push forward, while supporting my enthusiasm for better fuel and energy efficiency and attacking fuel poverty on behalf of the Government.
The amendment is unnecessary because the Sustainable Energy Act 2003 already provides the necessary flexibility to ensure that compliance takes
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place clearly and openly. That was the aim of all who were involved with the Act during its passage through the House. Section 4 gives the Government in England and the Welsh Assembly Government discretionary power to direct energy conservation authorities to improve energy efficiency in residential accommodation. It also requires those authorities to take action to implement cost-effective and practicable measures to achieve such improvement, while having regard to the eradication of fuel poverty. The Act gives the Secretary of State power to provide local authorities with guidance on their duties, and the authorities have a duty to have regard to it.
Brian White: When is the guidance likely to be produced?
Phil Hope: Regrettably, I am not responsible for the decision making of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, so I cannot give my hon. Friend that information; but I will convey his enthusiasm for such guidance to my colleagues in that Department.
Like my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Dr. Palmer), I find it hard to believe that a local authority that had not only managed to meet its obligations under the 2003 Act but exceeded them would be reluctant to publicise its achievement. Surely it would be singing its own praises loud and clear. I imagine that it would take great pleasure in including all the details of its achievement through whatever monitoring or reporting system it had eventually agreed to.
An important part of the Act provides that any use of the powers it confers should be considered carefully, and that use of the powers and final implementation of the Act should involve consultation with representatives of local government. That approach is consistent with our policy on freedoms and flexibilities for local authorities. The Government would not issue such directions—thus placing a new burden on the authorities—without providing the funds needed to meet the new requirements.
As the Government have said on many occasions, we consider the powers potentially useful, in that they could help us to meet our energy efficiency and fuel poverty objectives. That was clearly demonstrated by the Government's wholehearted support for the legislation during its passage.
I agree with the hon. Member for Hazel Grove (Mr. Stunell) that the placing of the amendment is odd. The registers established by clause 6 will contain information relating to the Building Act 1984 on individual buildings, whereas the amendment would require general, local authority-wide information to be placed somewhere in a register that was not designed to receive it. Even if we supported the amendment, we would feel that it was in the wrong place in the Bill.
I should explain to my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe, who was not on the Standing Committee, that clause 5 obliges the Government to produce a biennial report to Parliament on progress in the sustainability of building stock. He asked about the value of that, and the extent to which it would create pressure and momentum for improvement.
I shall not go into all the details that we discussed in Committee of other efforts that the Government are making to improve building stock, but we have PPS1
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and PPS22, the sustainability of buildings task group—which is about to publish a report—and many other initiatives showing our enthusiasm for the direction in which the hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr. Hayes) has pushed me. A great deal is going on and we are making progress. The amendment is unnecessary to our achievement of our aims.
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