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Mr. Wilson: I shall be brief. I did not intend to speak at all, because I said my piece on Second Reading. However, I see some glimmer of hope in what we have heard so far, which we should build on. I am not interested in the banter or why the Scottish National party is supporting the amendment. However, the fact that it is doing so is of considerable significance, so we should examine the amendment to see whether something productive could emerge from it.
I shall briefly outline the sequence of events that led us to this point. The Government made a commitment to reduce the number of Scottish seats at Westminster. That is settled and agreed: no one disputes it. The logic of that position, as enshrined in the Scotland Act 1998, was that the number of seats in the Scottish Parliament should be correspondingly reduced. At that point, the fix that my hon. Friend the Member for Clydesdale (Mr. Hood) described took place. There were discussions and it was concluded—wrongly, in my view—that the political imperative was to retain the 129 MSPs, so an amendment to the Scotland Act would be necessary.
I believe that the fix was arrived at not because the overwhelming burden of Scottish opinion was in favour of 129 MSPs, but because the other political parties would perceive it as bad faith if the number of MSPs
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were reduced unilaterally by a decision taken at Westminster. That is why the unsatisfactory compromise facing us—to cut the number of MPs at Westminster without reducing the number of MSPs at Holyrood—was arrived at.
I understand how that was all agreed, and I have already said that I believe that it was the wrong decision. I also understand the difficulty of escaping from it if the charge of bad faith could be levelled again for not implementing the agreement, but what we have today is something quite different. From a range of standpoints, virtually everyone in the House has come to accept the absurdity and lack of reason in what is being done.
At this point I shall revert to my speech on Second Reading, in which I made it clear that I do not approach the matter from a party political or even a constitutional point of view. The only direction that I come at it is from the interest of our constituents—a fact that seems to have been totally overlooked in the calculations of those who created the fix. What is being created is gratuitous confusion, misunderstanding, cynicism and, in some cases, real deprivation for our constituents. In particular there will be gratuitous and quite unnecessary confusion over constituency boundaries—where it has never existed, was not envisaged under the Scotland Act and about which no one in Scotland has any interest in creating now.
Mr. Salmond: We may be talking slightly at cross purposes. Our argument is that there is a consensus—certainly in the Scottish Parliament, where everyone except the Conservatives agree—that the 129 MSPs should be retained. My hon. Friend the Member for North Tayside (Pete Wishart) is arguing—I think, persuasively—that, when it comes to designing an electoral system for the new Parliament, those in charge of the process of producing, hopefully, a more satisfactory system than the present one should be the Scottish parliamentarians themselves.
Mr. Wilson: I fully understand that. I understand the SNP's reasons, which are slightly different from my reasons. I do not necessarily disagree, but I have different reasons for opposing the proposal and for supporting my hon. Friend's amendment. That, however, is a secondary issue. The point is that the SNP is supporting the amendment, as the hon. Member for North Tayside (Pete Wishart) made crystal clear. I was so interested that I requested confirmation in an intervention.
What the hon. Member for North Tayside is saying should be of interest to the Government. Any postponement would be made not out of cynicism, but for the reasons that I am setting out. Presumably, the statement of policy that the Scottish nationalists have made is the same as what they are saying in Edinburgh. The proposal has the support of the official Opposition in Westminster, and of the great majority of those Labour Back Benchers who are involved in the matter. Surely, therefore, it should be possible to hold some all-party discussion about how we go forward. Why does there have to be this lemming-like procession towards an outcome that everyone knows is wrong? The victims of that outcome would be our constituents.
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A lifeline has been thrown today, and it should not be blithely ignored. If the Committee ignores it today, I hope that those along the Corridor will take note. There can be no justification for going ahead with a plan that no party in this Chamber supports.
Mr. Connarty: I follow my right hon. Friend's logic in supporting the amendment, which would postpone the implementation of the legislation. However, he said earlier that he wanted a different system, so it seems that he is arguing against the result, rather than the time scale. If, after a postponement of a number of years, the same proposals were brought forward again, would he oppose them?
Mr. Wilson: With respect, that is not even an interesting hypothetical argument: it is just a hypothetical argument. We are talking about something that could happen years from now. I have always maintained that no logical system of voting practices in Scotland would contain the provisions that will be driven through the House tonight.
I have no problem with the Scottish nationalist amendment that would introduce a system of single transferable votes based on contiguous constituencies. However, that is just my personal view. If the introduction of the Bill were to be delayed, all-party talks could be held and a logical structure for Scottish constituencies arrived at. There are plenty of formulae available for avoiding all the pitfalls in the Bill.
Even at this late stage, we should build on the wide consensus that exists. We should not drive through a Committee of the whole House a measure whose real victims, I repeat, would be our constituents. The only winners would be the tiny minority of politicians with a vested interest in not losing face through backing down on this matter.
Mr. Peter Duncan: I am glad that I was able to hear the Scottish nationalist spokesman announce his party's change of policy on the matter. I have great sympathy with the hon. Member for Clydesdale (Mr. Hood), who wants to amend the Bill in a way that would render its format acceptable to him and his colleagues. Clearly, the Bill was drafted in a very expert manner. It took a long time, and the aim was to restrict as much as possible the debate on any amendments that might be tabled. However, I think that the hon. Gentleman has come up with a proposal that should be of interest to hon. Members of all parties in the Chamber.
There is a consensus across the political spectrum, on both left and right—among Back Benchers and, I respectfully submit, most Front Benchers too—that the Bill is a shambles. No one wants what it proposes, and the result is chaos and confusion. Everyone knows that it will have a hugely detrimental effect on election turnout, yet we are expected to wave it blithely through the Chamber.
I have great sympathy for the amendment, and for the endeavour of the hon. Member for Clydesdale to secure a postponement. The amendment would allow another opportunity for reflection. The incidence of U-turns among Government Front Benchers has become somewhat frequent lately, so perhaps there is a chance that the Government will make another—who knows?
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That would be a U-turn on a U-turn, as the whole Bill already amounts to a U-turn on previous Government policy.
This is an opportunity for Labour Back Benchers to engage more productively with the Minister. I counsel them against falling out with anyone, but if we cannot get all parties in Scotland to recognise that we are sleepwalking towards an electoral system disaster and feel unable to do anything about it, there is something deeply wrong with how we organise politics in Scotland. We all know that disaster is looming. The amendment gives us a chance to take some time before we take an irreversible action.
John Robertson: Why should we not want to wait to formulate a decent Bill and why do we have to rush into things? The consultation organised by the Government was a sham and a waste of everybody's time; the Labour Members who did not take part knew that. I want the Minister and the Secretary of State to take that fact on board and, in the words of the song, "Tae think again". They should do a proper consultation.
It is my opinion, unlike the hon. Member for North Tayside (Pete Wishart), that the Scottish people do not have the feeling that they did for the Scottish Parliament. We won their hearts and minds for the original vote, but the fine detail was not discussed then. Today, we are discussing fine detail, and the amendment gives us a chance to take another look at that. Why anyone would not want to do that I cannot understand. My colleagues among Members of the Scottish Parliament certainly see the need to look at the matter again, and I am sure that Opposition MSPs feel the same.
I want to hear why the Liberals, who intend to oppose the amendment, do not want to make the Bill better. Why do they want to disrupt the whole Scottish political system and then, following a commission, do it all over again? Why would they want to do that twice, unless it was for political motives or so that they could put the Scottish people off voting? I would not put that past them; they have not distinguished themselves in getting out their own vote, whatever has happened with everybody else's.
We have to engage in a conversation, like the big conversation that the Prime Minister is having. We have to listen to the people. I agree that we have to listen to the Scottish Parliament; I have no problem with that. Then again, the Scottish Parliament also has to listen to us, and we have legitimate cause for concern.
My hon. Friend the Member for Clydesdale (Mr. Hood) has moved an excellent amendment that has the support of two of the Opposition parties and many Labour Back Benchers. I doubt that many people in Scotland feel differently from me. I ask the Minister to accept the amendment, to look again and to bring forward an Act that the people of Scotland can be proud of, rather than one that they do not understand.
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