| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
Mr. Bill Tynan (Hamilton, South) (Lab) rose—
Mrs. McGuire: I will take an intervention from the leader of the Scottish National party because I am particularly interested in the position that the SNP has adopted this afternoon.
Mr. Salmond: I am glad that the Minister is doing so because, unlike others, our concern is not with the figure of 129—the result of the consultation was overwhelming—but with the fact that the Bill is subject to amendment that would fundamentally alter the electoral basis of the Parliament. The Secretary of State can set up the commission, but will the Minister assure the Committee that she thinks it inconceivable that an altered electoral system could be imposed on the Scottish Parliament without its consent?
Mrs. McGuire: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State made it perfectly clear on Second Reading that we have established an independent commission to consider some of the concerns, including those about electoral matters and—dare I say?—some of those raised by my right hon. and hon. Friends about coterminosity.
Mr. Tynan: My hon. Friend makes play of the consultation process that took place and the fact that that resulting decision seemed to produce the figure of 129. Does she believe that that consultation process resulted in the decision to reduce the number of MPs to 59?
Mrs. McGuire: With the greatest respect to my hon. Friend, the very purpose of the consultation process was to consider whether there was support for maintaining the number at 129 in the Scottish Parliament, essentially to decouple the number of MPs in Westminster and the number of MSPs in Scotland.
Let me move on specifically to the amendment because it is important to reflect not just on what has been said today, but on what the amendment would mean if it were agreed to this evening. Amendment No. 8 would remove the provisions that introduce schedule 2 to the 1998 Act, which makes provision to deal, if necessary, with the period before the functions of the boundary commission for Scotland are transferred to the Electoral Commission. The proposed replacement—new clause 1—would give the Secretary of State the power to bring the provisions of the Act into force, but only after the commencement of section 16 of the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000.
Section 16 of the 2000 Act relates to the transfer of functions of the boundary commission and allows the Secretary of State to transfer the boundary commission for Scotland's functions to the Electoral Commission
4 May 2004 : Column 1242
"at such time as the Secretary of State, being satisfied that they have no further functions to perform, by order directs."
The Government previously said that the current boundary commission's functions would not transfer until it had completed its reviews. I think that my hon. Friend the Member for Clydesdale believes that the amendment reflects that.
5.30 pm
However, the amendments would delay the Bill's enactment until after the boundary commission for Scotland had reported to the Secretary of State on its current review, had been formally wound up and had its functions transferred to the Electoral Commission. If the amendments were accepted, the order required to implement the boundary commission's report would have to include a provision for amended regional boundaries for the Scottish Parliament election as well as that for a reduction in the number of seats at Westminster. The amendments would therefore proportionately reduce the number of Scottish Parliament constituencies for the time being since, at that stage, no power would exist to decouple them from Westminster seats. That is why I find the Scottish National party's position utterly perverse.
If SNP members support the amendment, they will vote for a reduction in the number of Members of the Scottish Parliament.
Pete Wishart: That is not the case.
Mrs. McGuire: If the hon. Gentleman is right, I should like to hear him argue with greater force than he expressed in his contribution.
Pete Wishart: I am delighted to have the opportunity to restate my earlier point. If the amendments tabled by the right hon. Member for Cunninghame, North (Mr. Wilson) were accepted, such a fundamental change to the voting arrangements of the Scottish Parliament would have to be a matter for that body, which would have to consent to it. It is ludicrous to say that we can sign up to something that could change fundamentally the nature of the Scottish Parliament.
Mrs. McGuire: I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman realises which amendments we are currently debating. I tell him in all sincerity and generosity that if he and his party vote for the amendments, they will vote for a reduction in the number of Members of the Scottish Parliament as a consequence of not decoupling. That would be the result of the amendments, which make no provision for maintaining 129 Members of the Scottish Parliament.
Mr. Salmond: Will the Under-Secretary give way?
Mrs. McGuire: Here comes the cavalry.
Mr. Salmond:
A few seconds ago, the Under-Secretary said that the Secretary of State had given an assurance that, if any change were made to the electoral arrangements, either through his commission or amendment to the Bill, it would be inconceivable to impose it without the consent of the Scottish
4 May 2004 : Column 1243
Parliament. That is the position that she outlined. [Interruption.] A few seconds ago, she said that the Secretary of State had given that assurance. I merely ask her to restate what is already on the record.
Mrs. McGuire: It is unwise to put words into my mouth. I said that the commission would consider a general consensus throughout Scotland as part of developing consensus on moving forward on coterminosity and voting systems.
I revert to the perversity of the SNP position on the amendments. I repeat that, if they were accepted, the boundary commission's report would have to include a provision for amending the regional boundaries for the Scottish Parliament elections.
Mr. Salmond: Will the consensus that the Under-Secretary seeks through the commission or through amendment include the Scottish Parliament, on which the electoral system is being imposed? Will she say that it would be inconceivable to impose a new electoral system without the consent of the Parliament that will use it?
Mrs. McGuire: The hon. Gentleman continues to fail to understand the fundamentals of the constitutional arrangement under which we currently work. The electoral system for the Scottish Parliament, whether the hon. Gentleman likes it or not, is part of the constitutional settlement that established that body and is reserved. That is the top and bottom of the matter. However, having said that, I want to make it clear that, during our discussions on the matter, we have ensured that representatives of the Scottish Parliament, whether through its political or Executive structure, have been involved in the consultation. Earlier, I read out the list of those who were involved.
Mr. Wilson: Are not the principles of this debate more important than the legalistic mumbo-jumbo about the precise translation of amendments provided by lawyers? If there is consensus among the nationalists, the Tories and the vast majority of the Labour party that there should be a delay until this whole thing has been considered holistically and we have achieved a rational outcome to the discussions in the interest of all our constituents, does my hon. Friend not agree that that consensus should be built on rather than being swept aside, which would be the effect of driving the Bill through?
Mrs. McGuire: I do not accept my right hon. Friend's analysis. He and I go back a long way in terms of dealing with so-called mumbo-jumbo in motions and amendments, and I know that he and I were always of the view that what is meant by an amendment is what is in the amendment. I am trying to point out to him in the gentlest possible way that what is in the amendment might not be what he intends to happen. Perhaps, however, I am doing him a disservice; it might well be what he intends to happen.
We have made a commitment to maintain the number of Members of the Scottish Parliament at 129. The consequence of the amendments would be to reduce the number of MSPs. That is not mumbo-jumbo, as my right hon. Friend has suggested. It is the reality of what would happen if the amendments went through, because
4 May 2004 : Column 1244
we would need to undertake a reorganisation of the regional boundaries. If we intend to maintain the number of Members of the Scottish Parliament, it would be ludicrous to reduce it by accepting the amendments, only to reinstate that number at some future date.
I accept that I have perhaps not managed emotionally to engage with some of the arguments that have been made, particularly by my right hon. and hon. Friends. However, may I say to them in all sincerity that they need to consider what is stated in the amendments? Their effect would be to reduce the number of Members of the Scottish Parliament that the Government have made a commitment to maintain at 129.
| Next Section | Index | Home Page |