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Mr. Tynan : Unless I am wrong, my hon. Friend seems to be speaking about political expediency in the introduction of proportional representation in the Scottish Parliament. We have to consider the electorate's participation in PR systems. Does he agree that turning to PR for the European elections has been an absolute disaster for turnout, but that turnout for the last Scottish Parliament election certainly did not suggest that PR was the answer as far as the people of the country are concerned?

7.15 pm

Mr. Lazarowicz: I am not for one minute suggesting that proportionality is any electoral panacea for Scotland or elsewhere. As with history, statistics can be interpreted in various ways. The drop in turnout between the 1997 and 2001 UK general elections, held under the first-past-the-post system, was even greater than the drop between the Scottish Parliament elections of 1999 and 2003. Different things can be drawn out depending on the argument one wishes to make.

The essential point, which cannot be contradicted, is that there is not a groundswell of opinion in Scotland for moving away from some form of proportionality. Given
 
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the introduction of PR for local government, which has gone through the Scottish Parliament and which will happen, no matter what, we have to consider how the different systems will mesh together. Although I was as happy 14 years ago to support the principle of proportionality as I am today, I actually spoke against the system of two ballot papers. Unfortunately and regrettably, as on other issues, my wise counsel was ignored by those who made the decisions. There we are; that, too, is history.

There is no broad consensus among political parties and other groups in Scotland, or among the population, if opinion polls are to be believed, for moving away from proportionality. If we are to change the electoral system, one thing we certainly cannot do is impose that change on the Scottish people and the Scottish Parliament from Westminster. For reasons that we might go into later, I do not accept the Scottish National party's position that the right to change the electoral system should be devolved to the Scottish Parliament. However, the spirit of any change in the system should certainly go with any broad consensus not just in this Parliament but in the Scottish Parliament and among the Scottish people.

Mr. Salmond: My old university friend might go the extra step by accepting the principle that a self-respecting Parliament should be in charge of its own electoral system. If he did that, he might gain a few friends in the House, which he seems sorely to need at present?

Mr. Lazarowicz: The hon. Gentleman clearly wants to help me to maintain my friendships on my own Benches. We could debate examples later of how Parliaments and regional assemblies elsewhere in Europe make decisions on changes to their rules. That would be of interest to at least three or four of us.

The principle that we cannot impose change by edict on the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish political settlement needs to be emphasised from the Labour Benches. Since the Scottish Parliament was established, a new political reality has developed. The Scottish Parliament and the political arena around it are well established and as greatly respected as any other political institution in the UK, including this Parliament. That is the nature of the devolutionary change brought about gradually throughout the UK. Politics are not centred here in Westminster, but are being devolved in a real and direct sense.

Mr. Donohoe: Will my hon. Friend give way?

Mr. Lazarowicz: If my hon. Friend would not mind, I shall continue for a moment. We must recognise that the view, which he recommends, that we can do what we want because we have a majority and can force change through the Scottish Parliament is fundamentally undemocratic. Of course there are times when Governments have to make difficult decisions that may be against the broad body of public opinion. That should not be done regularly, especially by political parties that wish to have continued electoral support.
 
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Mr. Donohoe: My hon. Friend has argued that the Parliament is doing well and is settled. Has he had any problems with added list Members?

Mr. Lazarowicz: No, I have not had any difficulties with additional Members and the activities that some of my hon. Friends have described. However, I accept that some additional Members have acted as he described, and that is one reason why we might seek to change the type of proportionality without abandoning it completely.

John Barrett: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that under the amendments the two new regions would have 56 constituencies, with five or six list Members in each? One of the main arguments for a decent proportional system is to avoid the risk of a minority extreme Government ever being elected again. After all, we speak on the anniversary of the day that Margaret Thatcher was elected to Government on 40 per cent. of the vote.

Mr. Lazarowicz: I have made a strong enough case for proportionality already without being tempted down that road.

The establishment of the Scottish Parliament has had one of the consequences that those of us who supported it hoped it would. By establishing a Scottish Parliament, it was hoped that the case for devolution in the UK would be strengthened and the case for separatism would be weakened. That has indeed happened. As support for independence has declined, support for devolution has increased. It is no accident that the Scottish National party is now tearing itself apart over whether to embrace extreme independence or to make use of devolution. The establishment of the Scottish Parliament has sidelined the SNP and its demands for independence.

The irony is that the political victories that have been won by those of us who support devolution and the Union, and oppose independence, could be put at risk by those who would try to impose a political settlement on the Scottish Parliament—in terms of proportionality and number of Members—that would not be supported by our Labour colleagues or, indeed, by the vast majority of Scottish political organisations or Scottish society more generally. To follow the path suggested by some of my hon. Friends tonight would be to snatch political defeat from the jaws of victory.

Pete Wishart: It will not surprise the hon. Member for Cunninghame, South (Mr. Donohoe) to learn that I do not find his amendments attractive, for many of the reasons outlined by the hon. Member for Edinburgh, North and Leith (Mr. Lazarowicz), in a fine contribution. The amendments would cause as many problems as they seek to solve. My impression was that the hon. Member for Cunninghame, South intended that those in first and second places should be elected for
 
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the constituencies, but the amendments provide no clear indication as to how he would arrange the election of two Members from one Westminster constituency. I hope that he will tell us when he winds up. Electing those in first and second places might be a good idea compared to what we might actually get.

On Second Reading, several problems were identified, especially by Labour Members, including those to do with coterminosity, a multiplicity of voting systems and the effectiveness—or otherwise— of list Members. Do the amendments satisfy those three basic concerns? They certainly meet the test of coterminosity, because they would be based on the new Westminster constituencies. Do they meet the test of the multiplicity of voting systems? No, they fail dismally. If we were to accept the amendments, we would have first past the post for Westminster, first and second past the post for Holyrood, an additional Member list system for Holyrood, STV for local government and the closed list for European elections. That is five electoral systems, so the amendments would add to that problem.

The third test is whether the amendments would address the problems created by the list Members. They would not do so, because—as I pointed out in an intervention—the list Members would be crawling over half of Scotland, making the situation much worse. On the three critical tests identified on Second Reading by Labour Members, the amendments fail two. That is not good enough.

Mr. Peter Duncan: Has the hon. Gentleman himself been guilty of crawling over parts of Scotland?

Pete Wishart: As I represent the fourth largest constituency in the UK, I crawl over a fair bit of Scotland. I spend quite a bit of time travelling between Kinloch Rannoch and Brechin, although I prefer to drive because it is a more convenient and suitable way to get around.

I took seriously the concerns about coterminosity expressed on Second Reading. Labour Members may have a point, although they over-egg it. I have never had a constituent express concern about differing boundaries for Scottish Parliament elections and Westminster elections, but I agree that we are more effective when we work in conjunction with our Scottish parliamentary colleagues. Different boundaries might cause confusion in the electorate about whom to approach for assistance and advice. However, the problems would probably not be as bad as some Labour Members seem to believe—they appear to think that a lack of coterminous constituencies would mean the end of the western world as we know it.

The more pertinent point is the multiplicity of voting systems, and it must be addressed. If the amendments were accepted, we would have five systems. It is unfortunate that we have not had a real chance to debate the merits of the single transferable vote. We tabled amendments to that effect for this debate, but unfortunately they were not selected—I accept that there were good reasons for that. Surely STV would be the most elegant and sensible solution—[Interruption.] Hon. Members shout, "First past the post", but what has happened in Scotland in the past few weeks? Labour Members' colleagues in Scotland are now enthusiastic
 
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champions of proportional representation for local authorities. They are prepared to go on record to champion that cause, and I am sure that Labour Members here would cheer them to the rafters for doing so. The STV system will be used for elections to local authorities in Scotland, and it would make sense to have all domestic Scottish elections settled in the same way.

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