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Mr. Weir: Can the hon. Gentleman tell us how that would change under the proposals we are discussing? I understand that there would be two Members for Orkney and Shetland—a joint constituency, which is not being changed under the current boundary commission proposals for Westminster.

Mr. Davidson: Let me come to the answers in a moment, but my understanding of the amendment is that there would be two Members for each Westminster constituency, as proposed under the new system. Orkney and Shetland would each remain a constituency in the Scottish Parliament, with one Member each, but every other constituency would be split in half and their sizes would then be less disproportionate to the size of Orkney and Shetland than at the moment. Orkney would no longer have the gross, disproportionate advantage of being able to elect someone with a vote that would give him or her sixth place, behind the five others, in at least one other constituency. Clearly, that unfairness needs to be addressed, but it was not foreseen when the Scottish convention drew up the current system.

Mr. Weir: Would the hon. Gentleman like to address what the situation would be if the Western Isles constituency were split in two, as it also has a very small electorate, while returning two Members?

Mr. Davidson: That is a fascinating point, about which I invite the hon. Gentleman to submit an amendment. I have identified a difficulty, and I am happy to support the amendment, which would address it. If the hon. Gentleman has subsequently identified another difficulty, let him submit an amendment to try to deal with it.

I certainly want to associate myself with the earlier comments about the difficulties caused by list Members who pretend to represent individual constituencies. In the Pollok constituency, which I represent in the House, Johann Lamont was elected by a clear majority at the first Scottish parliamentary elections. She defeated Kenny Gibson of the SNP and Tommy Sheridan of the Scottish Socialist party, both of whom went on to pretend to be the constituency Member for the Pollok area. They advertised, presented themselves and went round to organisations, making it clear that they were the representatives for the Pollok constituency and deliberately trying to mislead the electorate. The SNP's internal election results have removed Kenny Gibson from the scene since then, but Tommy Sheridan still
 
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pretends to be a Member representing the Pollok constituency. That causes considerable confusion in the minds of many of the electorate.

I want to echo the point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Mrs. Liddell). Indeed, Australia's gain is our loss in the circumstances. She graphically pointed out the difficulties of the second vote system, which involves substantial numbers of wasted votes because of the way in which it operates.

Mr. Alan Reid: Does the hon. Gentleman not accept that, under the amendment, there would be far more wasted votes in the second ballot because the number of list MSPs would be reduced? So why does he support the amendment?

Mr. Davidson: Let me first outline what the difficulty is before returning to my solution.

In the second ballot in Glasgow, 77,000 people cast a vote for the Labour party, but they got no one elected. Those 77,000 votes were wasted. However, the SNP and the SSP together polled only 66,000, but they got four people elected. Why can 66,000 votes get four people elected, but 77,000 votes get no one elected? That seems to be patently unfair. Similarly, if the figures for the Liberals, the Greens and the Tories are put together, they polled only 45,000 votes, but got three people elected. So it seems that, with the second vote system, someone can fail to get elected even though he or she get lots of votes, while other people with fewer votes can get elected. Indeed, that applies not only in Glasgow, but in the west of Scotland, Lanarkshire, central Scotland, the Lothians and a number of other areas.

Pete Wishart: Will the hon. Gentleman explain how it is fair that it takes 87,313 votes—48 per cent.—for Labour to get 71 seats on Glasgow city council or 90 per cent. of the seats there, when the SNP gets three seats with 37,570 votes or 21 per cent. of the vote? Explain how that it is fair.

Mr. Davidson: Well, we now have someone in the national party of Scotland, as it sees itself, calling for Westminster to take powers away from Edinburgh and to determine how local government elections should be conducted in Scotland. I am prepared to support that suggestion if the hon. Gentleman is willing to table proposals that say that such things should cease to be devolved matters and should be dealt with here. The vast majority of councillors in Scotland, not only from my party but from other parties, would enthusiastically support stripping that power away from the Scottish Parliament.

7.45 pm

John Barrett: Does the hon. Gentleman not remember that the reason for the second vote was that the first vote was for a non-proportional, first-past-the-post seat? The second vote was intended to make the entire result more proportional. It was a case not of holding a completely separate election, but of making the entire election more proportional.

Mr. Davidson: That was not why the system was set up; it was set up to keep the Liberals on board. It was a
 
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sweetie given to the Liberals to keep them happy and to stop them walking out of the convention and threatening to sabotage the establishment of the Scottish Parliament. That is why it was done.

John Robertson: Is it not also a fact that, when those people were standing outside the polling stations, they told the people who were going in, "Yes, you can vote Labour. We don't want your first vote. It's okay to vote Labour, but vote for us in the second vote. Don't worry about that; Labour won't mind because their second vote doesn't count"? Is that what we call democracy?

Mr. Davidson: Indeed, that is exactly what was said. Not only were the Liberals saying it, but the Trots, the nationalists and, indeed, the Tories were saying it in Pollok. [Hon. Members: "Tories in Pollok?"] Yes, there are a few Tories in Pollok, and we know where they live. Yes, we have got their names. Everyone was clearly saying that the Labour party's votes in the second ballot would be wasted, so people should vote for the other parties. Of course, many people took that advice, which artificially depressed the Labour party's vote in the second ballot—otherwise it would have been much higher. The 77,000 votes that were cast is a lower figure than the number of Labour votes in the first ballot. It cannot be sensible to have a system with two ballots, when people know that their votes will be wasted if they support Labour in at least five out of Scotland's eight divisions. That is not tenable.

Mr. Lazarowicz: I am grateful to a fellow Labour and Co-operative Member for giving way. As I understand it, he is saying that it is wrong for parties to suggest that voters in the second ballot should vote in a way that does not reflect their preferred electoral wishes but that makes the most of the electoral system. My hon. Friend has been calling for some time for the Co-operative party to do that very thing in the list system for the Scottish Parliament. Has he now withdrawn that proposal, which, of course, has regrettably found no support at any official level in the Co-operative party?

Mr. Davidson: May I say how glad I am to get that introduction from my colleague? I was identifying the difficulties before moving to the solution, and it seems entirely sensible that we examine it in the light of the two problems that I have identified—the unfair sizes of individual constituencies and the preponderance of wasted votes in the second ballot—whether or not the amendment proposed by my hon. Friend the Member for Cunninghame, South (Mr. Donohoe) addresses those issues.

Of course, the amendment clearly addresses both the issues that I have identified. By splitting in half the proposed Westminster constituencies and creating two seats in each, we would bring the seats more in line with Orkney and Shetland, although not sufficiently so in my view. Of course we would also allow a system of gender balance in respect of my own party. That would not involve legislation, but I support that because it would be in line with our view of how any revised system for the Scottish parliamentary elections should be conducted.

However, let us consider the second system that I suggest. If there is no change in the electoral system along the proposed lines, we must all, especially Labour
 
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Members, consider how to react. We have two experiences of every Labour vote in the second ballot being wasted. In those circumstances, the rational response is to consider casting one's vote elsewhere. I know that the Tories, the Liberals, the nationalists, the Greens and the Trots have appealed for those votes at some time. However, I believe that it is far better to cast that vote for a party with which we already have an alliance; it is far better to give it to a nice, kind body such as the Co-operative party, which can be trusted to work more closely with the Labour party than with the Liberals.

Like my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, North and Leith (Mr. Lazarowicz), I stand for this place as a joint Labour and Co-operative candidate because, on a first-past-the-post system, it makes no sense for a Labour candidate and a Co-operative candidate to stand against each other. However, under the system that we are considering and that I want to amend, it is irrational for Labour to put up candidates in both categories for the Scottish Parliament elections. In such circumstances, I hope that our arrangement with the Co-operative party would be recast to allow the latter to stand and Labour to stand down in order to create a Co-operative and Labour party alliance.

I appreciate that I have outlined a new idea, which is therefore considered dangerous. I also know that it was not invented at head office and must be even more suspect. None the less, I hope that Labour Members will consider it on its merits. We cannot continue to ask our people to waste their votes in election after election and subsequently find ourselves forced into an alliance with people with whom we would not choose to share an enclosed space for any length of time, simply because the other alternatives are worse.

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