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Anne Picking: I thought that the hon. Gentleman was about to finish his speech, so I was waiting for an opportunity to ask the same question as I asked a colleague of his. The hon. Gentleman maintained earlier that we should have no right to inflict or impose a voting system on an established democracy. The same established democracy wants to do that by introducing PR in local government. How does he marry the two arguments?
Mr. Salmond: The hon. Lady is correct. It is not a question of inflicting a system. A legislative Parliament should have the right to determine its own electoral system. Electoral systems can be determined only by legislation and therefore only where there is legislation. I am not sure whether the hon. Lady was arguing this, but conceivably under her argument there could be a different electoral system for each local authority in Scotland, which would not be a great idea. If we are concerned about four or five electoral systems, being concerned about 25 might seem a bit much.
The principle of consent comes through the political forces in the Scottish Parliament. I have been shocked to discover in this debate that it is estimated that only 10 per cent. of Scottish Labour party members support the electoral system for local government that the First Minister announced only a few weeks ago as a breath of fresh air and a revolution in Scottish democracy to which his party was fully signed up. I suspect that he has as much influence on these matters as he did with his call
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to vote against whisky strip stamps, if I can mention that issue again. The fact that the First Minister of Scotland does not represent what some hon. Members understand to be Labour party opinion is, with great respect, a matter for the Labour party and the First Minister, not for the rest of us. What I can say is that there are enthusiastic supporters in local government—certainly in my party and, I think, in others—of a form of proportionality, but Parliament takes the decision. I am sure that the hon. Lady's colleagues in the Scottish Parliament will take a decision for the best of motives on what they believe in, not for any other base objective.
The mechanics of the voting system in Scotland have certain flaws, and nobody who has seen that system in operation, or who has experienced standing for election under it, could deny it. The system is capable of change; it should be changed by the Scottish Parliament, and at the very least I hope the Minister can go a bit further than her disappointing allusion. Previous Ministers in her position, while reserving within their opinion the right to legislate, have always conceded that such legislation primarily affects the Scottish Parliament and its view in the matter certainly should be taken into account. As Lord MacKay of Ardbrecknish said in 1997, it would be inconceivable for someone else to impose on the Scottish Parliament an electoral system that it did not want.
Mr. Salmond: I shall give way one last time, for old times' sake.
Jim Sheridan: When the hon. Gentleman speaks about two votes and one being wasted, I work on the assumption that at the next general election he will inform his constituents in Banff and Buchan that if they vote for him to come to Westminster that will also be a second vote for him to go to the Scottish Parliament as well. One way or another, one vote will be wasted.
Mr. Salmond: I am fortunate in that, as yet, my constituents in Banff and Buchan have reckoned it reasonably worth while to elect me to whichever Parliament I have stood for. With great respect, I have more confidence in the judgment of my electorate than I would if they were composed only of the hon. Gentleman. Let us leave that matter in the hands of the people of Banff and Buchan, and I will be delighted to accept their verdict.
On contribution rates—I shall not talk about my own, of course, as modesty forbids—those of my hon. Friends seem to be higher than those of virtually every Labour Member in the Chamber. That is the case not only for contributions made from the Floor—
The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Sylvia Heal): Order. The hon. Gentleman is straying very wide of the amendment.
Mr. Salmond: I accept your strictures, Mrs. Heal. I think that Labour Members know what I was about to say, so let us leave it there and get back to the heart of the issue.
I believe that the Scottish Parliament—any self-respecting Parliament—should determine its own voting system. The events when this Parliament
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determined the voting system and legislated on it on 28 January 1998 provide no basis of confidence for believing that it should have another try. It botched up the first go and the Scottish Parliament should be the place where these things are done. I hope that the Minister is at least able to say more about how she shall consider the views of that Parliament on the electoral system. I hope also that she will confirm that she is not prepared to wait until the Conservative party is ready to nominate at some point in the future before getting the commission up and running.
My last point to the Minister is a serious one, and I hope it is shared widely. Given the problems that have been identified in the voting system for the Scots Parliament from a variety of points of view—for problems there are, without question—can she say whether a new and better proportional voting system will be up and running in time for the next Scottish elections?
John Robertson: I look at the time and see that I have plenty of it, but I do not intend to take up too much.
In relation to his comments about 1997 and 1998, I say to the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond) that hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I wonder how many of my colleagues would now not intervene to try to prevent what was proposed at the time. I agree, as he did with me on Second Reading, with his analysis on ballot papers. One ballot paper is sufficient for anybody. The voting system we might not agree on, but never mind.
This has been an excellent debate and, as usual, we have had a lot of fun. Unfortunately, the people we are here to talk about and represent probably do not care a jot about what we are discussing and what will happen at the end of it. They might eventually care, but at this moment they do not. Something that my right hon. Friend the Member for Cunninghame, North (Mr. Wilson) said of the commission fully fits practically everything that we are saying today. He said:
"To me, the commission sounds like a classic Sir Humphrey mechanism. One can imagine the discussion that took place: 'We are creating a shambles—what are we going to do? We'll set up a commission. When will the commission report? After the shambles has been created."—[Official Report, 9 February 2004; Vol. 417, c. 1182.]
That sums up exactly what we are talking about in relation to the system that we have in Scotland.
8.15 pm
The hon. Member for Galloway and Upper Nithsdale (Mr. Duncan) asked why we need to open up the Act. I have great sympathy with that question and we have been known to agree in the matter. This comes down to whether we are getting value for money. I am happy to accept 129 MSPs, and I am sure that the people of Scotland would be happy to accept that number if they felt that they were getting value for money. Sadly, I do not think that they are.
That came out in particular in the Scottish Affairs Committee when we took evidence on the subject, as neither the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities nor representatives of the Scottish Executive—I know that the hon. Member for Angus (Mr. Weir) will agree—
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had anything good to say about the list system. The jokes and the laughter about people crawling over constituencies are only too true.
Other than the annoyance caused to MPs and MSPs elected under first past the post, there is the cost to the nation. The cost, in Scotland in particular, is vast. Questions are asked in duplicate, triplicate and goodness knows what "iplicate" when we get to about 16 questions, which is a waste of time and money. It has to be addressed.
Jim Sheridan: On wasting money, my hon. Friend will be aware that that happens not only in the Scottish Parliament, but at Westminster, where we have MPs asking duplicate questions when the answers are available from the ministerial website. Those MPs refuse to get the information in that way, so they waste Parliament's time by asking the questions and using them in a league table.
John Robertson: My hon. Friend is right. If we are to try to get value for money for any Parliament, not just the Scottish Parliament, we must look seriously at the asking of such questions. Nationalist Members may get involved with league tables, but I have to say that certain Conservatives have to take a really good look at themselves and the number of questions they ask. On opening up Hansard, we can find 20 pages filled by questions from one Member. That is not value for money for the constituents he represents, and it is not value for money for the House. It certainly is not value for money for the taxpayer.
Amendments Nos. 1 and 2 would introduce two Members per constituency, but at no time did anyone in whose name those amendments stand talk about the electoral system as such. Two per constituency would keep coterminosity, which, in most cases, has been agreed to be desirable. If not desirable, it is a necessity. Election might be by first past the post, STV or AV—I lean towards first past the post, but then again I would—but that is not to say that there could not be election by another system.
The fact of the matter is that that is not what the amendment is about. It is about keeping coterminosity and keeping a relationship between Westminster and the Parliament in Scotland. Of course, it would be politically advantageous for the nationalist party to get rid of that. The last thing that it wants is Westminster and Holyrood working together in partnership and doing what is right for the people. I do not think that the Scottish nationalists care two hoots about the people, unless they happen to vote for them. Thank goodness for the rest of us, who do not vote for them in great numbers.
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